Text 17846, 388 rader
Skriven 2007-08-28 22:11:36 av Mac Breck (4323.babylon5)
     Kommentar till en text av rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Ärende: Re: ATTN JMS: TLT comments/questions. SPOILERS
======================================================
"Thunder Magnificent!" <deceptar@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:EVTAi.100013$rX4.31486@pd7urf2no...
> Mac Breck wrote:
> > SPOILERS for The Passing of the Technomages.....
> >
> >
> > "Thunder Magnificent!" <deceptar@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:pFKAi.98562$rX4.41865@pd7urf2no...
> >> The only problem I have with the Technomage Trilogy is that it
makes
> >> Sheridan out to be a total idiot with Galen there in the shadows
> >> whispering in his ear, guiding him constantly on his path.
> >
> > Total idiot?  Guiding him constantly?  Overstating things a helluva
lot,
> > aren't you?  Yes, you are.
>
>
> Galen was there every time Sheridan had to make a major decision,
> telling him what to do through sub-conscious manipulation. Shadows
> strategy against the refugee ships? Galen.
> What to do and where to go on Zhadum? Galen.

I'll have to find and reread those passages, but Galen's influence never
struck me as all that pervasive and objectionable.  Will print this out
and reply to this part later.



> It seemed like she (Cavelos) got a bit carried away with
> that... the saga of B5 couldn't have happened without Galen's
invisible
> presence and help.

Well, how'd you think the Whitestar got past The Eye to bomb Z'ha'dum?
There had to be defenses that would have taken it out before it could
crash into the planet, or at least prevent Sheridan's communications to
the ship.



>    Also, when the Mages left B5 it was clear their ship(s) wasn't
> intended to blow up right after the credits rolled but that's how it
> happened in the novel.

Ship, singular.  Only the Ondavi blew up anywhere near the station in
the novels, and that shouldn't have happened DURING THE EPISODE (The
Geometry of Shadows), which is where Jeanne Cavelos had it, NOT after
the credits rolled.  THAT'S the problem, where and when it exploded and
who saw it.

Here's the email correspondence I had with Jeanne about this very thing.
Posted with permission.  Personal information deleted.

****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeanne Cavelos"
To: "Mac Breck"
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Technomage Trilogy - nitpick (Spoilers) and The Geometry of
SHadows


> Hi.  I'm under huge deadline pressure right now, so must answer
> quickly.  But there is no continuity error, and the answer is
> very clear at the end of Book 2.  Anyone who is confused should
> go back and read that.  Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is
> just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only
> one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions.  He knows Elric
> intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with
> Ing-Radi.  Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to
> sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages,
> most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin.  So Sheridan
> arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin.
> Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode, but believes, as I said, that
> there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have
> escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey
> beyond the rim.  He *never* believed that all the mages blew up,
> because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans.  Only Morden and the
> Shadows were deceived.  Hence, no inaccuracy.
>
> Okay?  Must get back to work.
>
> Jeanne

****************************************

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mac Breck"
To: "Jeanne Cavelos"
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Technomage Trilogy - nitpick (Spoilers) and The Geometry of
Shadows


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeanne Cavelos"
> To: "Mac Breck"
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Technomage Trilogy - nitpick (Spoilers) and The Geometry
of
> SHadows
>
>
> > Hi.  I'm under huge deadline pressure right now, so must answer
> > quickly.
>
> I'm not looking for a quick response on the following, but would like
you to
> read it and possibly respond **when you get time**.   :-)

> > But there is no continuity error, and the answer is
> > very clear at the end of Book 2.
>
> Reference: Summoning Light, page 316 bottom to page 321.
>
> > Anyone who is confused should
> > go back and read that.  Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is
> > just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only
> > one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions.  He knows Elric
> > intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with
> > Ing-Radi.  Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to
> > sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages,
> > most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin.  So Sheridan
> > arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin.
>
> Right.  I got that.  There is no continuity error in Sheridan seeing
> technomages further down the road, e.g. in A Call to Arms.  Also,
we'll
> never know exactly what Ing-Radi told Sheridan.  We know only what
Elric has
> surmised that she told Sheridan.
>
>
>
> > Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode,
>
> Only in the book.  Summoning Light, page 320, top.
>
> > but believes, as I said, that
> > there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have
> > escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey
> > beyond the rim.  He *never* believed that all the mages blew up,
> > because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans.
>
> True.
>
>
> > Only Morden and the
> > Shadows were deceived.
> > Hence, no inaccuracy.
>
> Not quite true.
>
> In The Geometry of Shadows, Sheridan is in the EA Lounge ("Earhart's")
with
> Ivanova, Franklin and Garibaldi.  Sheridan's link beeps, and we hear
Corwin
> say "You said you wanted to know when the technomages were leaving,
Captain.
> They're boarding now."[1]  Sheridan says "Thank you.  I'll be right
there."
> Then he tells Garibaldi, Ivanova, and Franklin "I have to head up to
> control. See you in a bit, huh."  Next we cut to Londo and Elric, and
in the
> background "Private liner Crystal Cabin is now in final check prior to
> departure.  Passengers are to proceed to the docking area..."  After
the
> scene with Londo and Elric, we cut to C&C, and hear Corwin say the
following
> to Sheridan "The ship carrying the technomages is requesting
permission to
> leave.  What do I tell them?"[2]  Sheridan replies "Tell them,
permission
> granted."[3]  Next, we see the jumpgate activating and one ship
leaving
> uneventfully[4].  There are no explosions and no maneuvering around
debris.
>
> [1] From the episode, Chrysalis, we know the links are not secure
> communications.  Garibaldi did not trust the link to tell Sinclair
about
> what he'd discovered about the plot to assassinate President Santiago.
> Morden's associates (informants) may have overheard Corwin's message
to
> Sheridan here.  Also, to which ship is Corwin referring?  Is Corwin in
on it
> as well?
>
> [2] Summoning Light, page 318, lines 9-12.  "That would be the
Ondavi."  So
> Corwin is referring to the Ondavi here.
>
> [3] Summoning Light, page 318, line 17.  "Tell them, permission
granted."
>
> [4] Presumably the Ondavi.  But here's where you pulled the old
switcheroo
> on us.  You want us to believe that the ship making the successful
jump is
> the Crystal Cabin.
>
> Now, here comes the problem.  Summoning Light page 318, bottom third
to page
> 319 top third.  Both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are leaving
Babylon 5
> at nearly the same time.  Ondavi is ahead, by about a minute, and
heading
> for the jumpgate.  So, both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are in
normal
> space between B5 and the jumpgate when the Ondavi explodes (Summoning
Light,
> page 320 top) which we never see in The Geometry of Shadows).
>
> 1. In the Geometry of Shadows, we never see Sheridan see the
explosion.
> 2. If Sheridan had seen a ship explode, he would not have been as calm
and
> contented as we see him at the end of The Geometry of Shadows.
> 3. Surely somebody in C&C would have reacted to an explosion.
> 4. If the ship, that we see make the successful passage through the
jumpgate
> in the Geometry of Shadows, was the Crystal Cabin, we never see it
> maneuvering around the debris of the Ondavi.
>
> *That* was the inaccuracy that I'm talking about.  Now, *if* both the
Ondavi
> and the Crystal Cabin had made successful jumps to hyperspace, and the
> Ondavi had exploded in hyperspace after the jumpgate had closed, and
they
> were far enough away from B5 for the local sensors not to notice it,
then
> Sheridan would never have seen it and it would have made more sense
with
> regard to what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows.
>
> Sheridan seeing a ship explode (the first paragraph on page 320 of
Summoning
> Light) just doesn't go with what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows.
He
> reacts in the book, but not in the episode. Do you see what I mean?
If the
> first ship, the Ondavi, had exploded, and the second ship, the Crystal
> Cabin, had made the successful jump, we'd have seen more of a
commotion in
> C&C.
>
> Mac Breck
> ------------------------

****************************************

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeanne Cavelos"
To: "Mac Breck"
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Technomage Trilogy - nitpick (Spoilers) and The Geometry of
Shadows


> Mac,
>
> Hi.  Well, here's a quick answer, though you didn't ask for it.
> I suppose I can give you a longer one later, though I don't think
> there's too much to say.
>
> I assumed a passage of time between the explosion of the Ondavi
> and the Crystal Cabin's jump through the gate.  In the book, all
> you know is that, after the explosion, the Crystal Cabin is
> maneuvering around the wreckage, and then we leave Elric's POV.
> I assume that if a ship explodes, they're going to stop
> everything for at least a few minutes before resuming normal
> traffic and jumps.  So the Crystal Cabin will have to wait before
> jumping, giving Sheridan time to react to the explosion, along
> with the rest of the C&C crew, Londo, Vir, etc. Then the Crystal
> Cabin makes the jump and Sheridan goes into that speech at the
> end of TGOS.  Clearly, this is a passage of time that isn't shown
> in the episode.  Similarly, I inserted many things in the book
> that weren't in the episode.  If people aren't willing to allow
> that things happened on B5 that weren't shown in the episode,
> then they obviously aren't going to like my book, but I thought
> that using that technique made the book a lot more interesting
> than it would otherwise be (and also more true to the
> techno-mages and their deceptive natures).  Since I never show
> Sheridan's speech in the book, it's never established how much
> time passes between the explosion and the Crystal Cabin's
> departure.  Each reader can make it what he wants.
>
> Jeanne


****************************************

2nd follow-up after I guess she'd thought about it a bit more:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeanne Cavelos" <jcavelos@mindspring.com>
To: "Mac Breck" <macbreck@access995.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Technomage Trilogy - nitpick (Spoilers) and The Geometry of
Shadows


> Hi.
>
> I suppose that in the book I could have had some announcement
> over the loudspeaker on the Crystal Cabin that their jump would
> be delayed by an hour . . . I guess I just figured people could
> insert that on their own, and I didn't want to break the mood.
>
> Nice "talking" with you.
>
> Jeanne


End of Emails.
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Hope that sheds some light on the situation.  I still don't think that's
enough, but I didn't pursue it further.  The explosion shouldn't have
taken place where anybody on B5 would have been aware of it IF it
occured during "The Geometry of Shadows."



>    I also found it convenient that every time we see a Shadow ship in
> the early episodes it turns out to be Anna's ship.

I don't know that that's exactly true, but is it so far fetched that
Anna's ship, one of the first to be activated after the Shadows'
awakening, would be in the thick of things before the Shadows got a lot
of their ships operational?  No, nor really.




> These are my problems with the mage trilogy.

My problem is mainly with the Ondavi exploding between B5 and the
jumpgate, in full view of Londo, Vir and others, and then the Crystal
Cabin (containing Elric and the rest of the mages) having to navigate
around that wreckage on their way to the jumpgate and none of this being
seen or mentioned in "The Geometry of Shadows" anywhere.  THAT was the
BIG mistake of the Technomage trilogy.




> > So, Galen helped him a bit and we didn't see that on camera.  So
what.
> > No big deal.  Kosh helped Sheridan,. too.  Did that make Sheridan an
> > idiot?  No.
>
> But Kosh was revealed and eventually died. He didn't stick around
> forever and tell Sheridan what to do.
>
>
> > As for his Spell of Destruction,
> > it has a limited diameter.
>
> We never see that spell ever in the TV series either. Just nitpicking.


So, there's lot of stuff in the Technomage trilogy that isn't seen ever
in the TV series.  Doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad or wrong.  If
it doesn't CONFLICT with B5 or Crusade, it's fine by me.



-- 
Mac Breck (KoshN)
-------------------------------
"Babylon 5: Crusade" (1999)
Galen: "There is always hope, only because it's the one thing that no
one has figured out how to kill yet."

"Brimstone" (1998)
Angel: Oh, there's one more thing you should know. Your fate was never
determined until you killed Gilbert Jax. All in all, you've led a good
life, Ezekiel. Have faith. Your work's appreciated.
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
 * Origin: Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 (1:14/400)