Text 2244, 94 rader
Skriven 2006-06-09 20:30:00 av Robert E Starr JR (2690.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Atheists: America's m
=================================
* * * This message was from Charlie Edmondson to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.m * *
*
         * * * and has been forwarded to you by Lord Time * * *         
            -----------------------------------------------             

@MSGID: <4489eb83$1@news.cadence.com>
@REPLY: <5oah82hg2961shtqrnfavm0f8ri84dspr6@4ax.com>
Josh Hill wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:46:26 +0000 (UTC), Charlie Edmondson
> <edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Josh Hill wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi Josh,
>>Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  You have been reading 
>>propoganda produced by the proponents for hydrogen, and I have been 
>>reading propoganda produced by the opponents, although mine was 
>>generally written by engineers with engineering analysis, and the 
>>pro-hydrogen pieces are typically written by professional writers 
>>speaking to researchers - hype aplenty... 8-)
> 
> 
> What I've seen in the popular press swings both ways, with some
> reporters focusing on all the good things that might happen, some
> presenting a fairly balanced account, and some focusing on every
> problem as if it were an insurmountable roadblock in a way that
> suggests to me they're completely unfamiliar with R&D.
> 
> The engineering analyses I've seen have been fairly optimistic. I'd
> always be glad to see papers that take other views.
> 
> 
>>And, there are theoretical limits on the fuel cells and the 
>>electrolysers, which we are a long way from even approaching.  When we 
>>get close, that will be when the fuel cells are 3-5% better than an ICE. 
>> Beware when you hear someone talk about the efficiency of one part of 
>>the system, such as just the fuel cell, and compare it to the entire 
>>system, such as an ICE.  Also, take care when they mention botton 
>>cycling, and such 'efficiency boosters' as they will have little place 
>>in vehicle applications.  That is where you take the waste heat from the 
>>unit, and use it for something else.  Except for heating your car 
>>interior in winter, there is little use for the waste heat in a mobile 
>>application.
> 
> 
> That's a significant use, though.
> 
> 
>>And take a better look at the reality of those metal hydride storage 
>>tanks.  The only place I have seriously seen them considered is in a 
>>submarine, and even there, it is a demonstation vehicle.  They weigh A 
>>LOT, don't hold that much hydrogen, require high temperatures to 
>>function, and are therefore a nice research project but have little hope 
>>of being in your garage!
> 
> 
> That was true a couple of years ago, but no longer seems to be the
> case. Still a research project, but no longer a long shot.
> 
> 
>>Also, you spoke of grid storage ADDING to the cost of electricity.  Have 
>>you seriously priced the alternatives?
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about grid storage that's used to store power for peak
> demand, but grid storage that's used to compensate for wind
> intermittency: the figures I've seen suggests that it raises the
> delivered cost of wind power by about 50 percent.
> 
> 
Hi Josh,
Glad you are looking around over in sci.energy.hydrogen.  If you're 
interested, take a look at Don's websites.  He enjoys a bit of 
hyperbole, but he really does know his stuff.

Waste heat to warm the car interior is nice, but it doesn't get you any 
farther on the road, so you can't add it in to your efficiency figures. 
  But you knew that!  8-)

Ok, you are talking about the stuff like resevoirs (darn, can't spell 
all the sudden... 8-) ) and the pumps and generators for elevated water 
storage.  Yep, does add to the costs, but they pay for themselves real 
quick.  You store it during the evening when demand and prices are low, 
then sell the power during the day whe prices are high.  You can make 
nice profits from them if you have a good place to keep the water.

Charlie
                                                                               
                                   
--- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
 * Origin: Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 (1:14/400)