Text 30, 196 rader
Skriven 2005-01-25 00:47:52 av Kay Shapero (1:102/524.0)
Ärende: [1 of 2] JMS posts to moderated b5 newsgroup
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This is a collection of recent posts by JMS to the newsgroup
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
See also http://america.net/~judge for Dirk Loedding's archives
of JMS posts.
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:22:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS: Church (was To JMS)
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated


>Now, the _ad hominem_ argument JMS and others here are using is that
>because there have been unattractive and even un-Christian actions in
>(1), therefor the beliefs in (2) are false.
>
>This does not follow.

Which is why I didn't say it.  Didn't say anything close to what you're
characterizing.  Show me where I, as you say, "condemn Christianity."

You can't, because I didn't.

Understand: I'm not here to reaffirm your beliefs.  Nor am I here to invalidate
them.  If asked what I think about a given subject, I will give my opinion.
I'm not out to change anybody's opinion (unlike the ten gazillion emails I've
gotten since this started out to try and convert me...and by the way, stop it,
you who know who you are).

What bugs me is hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.  And that's the subject
under discussion.  So setting up a straw man by saying I condemned Christianity
so that you can then skewer it is of no interest or assistance in the
discussion, since that's not what I have said.

 jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:11:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated


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>Note that I didn't say the church didn't condemn Galileo, only that in
>doing so it did not (could not) use the Pope's infallibility argument, as
>the topic on hand was not germane to it. Faith, Doctrine and Morals have
>well defined boundaries

Your logic doesn't parse.  They went after Galileo (and Copernicus and others)
because the church MADE these issues matters of faith.  The distinction (one
might say excuse) you are making now, with hindsight, is one that the church of
that time would not support.

Galileo was not arrested for bad science.  He wasn't arrested for littering.
He was arrested for HERESY.

Heresy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is a "theological or
religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary,
to the catholic or orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by
extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as
orthodox."

So the church of that time considered the place of the Sun and Earth in the
heavens so thoroughly a matter of faith and doctrine, because the notion of man
as the center of the universe was central to their faith, that that in order to
preserve the morals of the time, they arrested Galileo and would have likely
executed him if not for his high profile and position...and had he not recanted
and spent the last ten years of his life under house arrest.

The church DID consider these to be matters of faith, so I don't understand how
you can say now, well, they weren't.  If a leader is infallible on matters of
faith, then should he not know what is faith and what is not so he can know
when he is being infallible and when he is not?

But in any event, to say that the arrest of Galileo had nothing to do with
matters of faith is ludicrous on the face of it, and totally inconsistent with
history.  Or, more simply, it just ain't true.

The church maintained that these were matters of faith worth murdering and
imprisoning over until the day came when they were proven, conclusively, to be
wrong...then they said, well, those weren't *really* matters of faith, we wuz
just funnin' ya.  The whole Papal Inquisition, the trials, the torture, that
was just a goof.

Come on.
 jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:48:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated


>From what he said, while there he uncovered many documents
>that proved that the RC Church used to have a marriage ceremony for same
>sex couples.

Don't know how much accuracy is there, but there's info about this at:

http://www.ashe-prem.org/five/duffy.shtml


 jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:48:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated


>Hmm...the quoted part didn't show up. I was referring to...
>
>

>>Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> > The Bible clearly states that at one point the Sun was stopped in its
>orbit
> > around the Earth,

>> Where in the heck is that? Specifically, by chapter and verse? I don't
>> recall reading anything like that... (not calling you a liar or
>> anything, just curious).

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." (Psalm 104:5)

"The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (Psalm 93:1)

"Say among the nations, 'The Lord reigns.' The world is firmly established; it
cannot be moved." (Psalm 96:10)

"Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot
be moved." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

"'O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.' So the
sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its
enemies." (Joshua 10:12-13)

 jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:32:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated


>You are correct... the Pope is infallible only in his teaching office,
>when speaking ex cathedra on faith, doctrine and morals.

By faith and doctrine, the Sun goes around the Earth.  Hence the *reason* they
went after Galileo.  So he was wrong.  Hence, not infallible when speaking ex
cathedra.


 jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:04:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: To JMS
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)

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