Text 3281, 263 rader
Skriven 2006-07-04 13:05:00 av Robert E Starr JR (3754.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Atheists: America's m
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* * * This message was from Dennis \(Icarus\) to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.m * *
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@MSGID: <1b62f$44a9d606$18d64cf6$30094@KNOLOGY.NET>
@REPLY: <jvCdndpuNJADSTvZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@comcast.com>

"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f98ja2t3699vr26orce9u5tuvk16bpajt7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:15:27 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)"
> <ala_dir_diver@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:gesga2dedbfnlognlrcmhickoep9hds8ke@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 19:15:27 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)"
> >> <ala_dir_diver@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:12mga2lb49rec8oc9k848ipkhl9un3eo7r@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 14:29:10 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)"
> >> >> <ala_dir_diver@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:adsfa29jkmu0l0pkr74nja1fugm21v7n3j@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:52:25 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)"
> >> >> >> <ala_dir_diver@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >"Josh Hill" <usereplyto@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >news:cemfa2pl698vnkdpfkl6hsjrm4qedts632@4ax.com...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Er, no: estate taxes were introduced to avoid the creation of
an
> >> >> >> >> American aristocracy -- people who took a disproportionate
> >> >percentage
> >> >> >> >> of the goods and serves the nation produces without making a
> >> >> >> >> commensurate contribution.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Yeah, good thing we had that, otherwise we'd have folks like the
> >> >> >> >Kennedy's.....wait a sec....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Oh, sorry -- I forgot that if George Washington was an American,
all
> >> >> >> Americans are George Washington.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My point was that, regardless, we do have an "American
aristocracy".
> >> >> >So it seems the inheritance tax was as effective in that as are
many
> >> >other
> >> >> >government programs :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Apparently, it was effective when it was first enacted -- actually
> >> >> wiped out some great fortunes. But the rich soon found ways to cheat
> >> >
> >> >And you find this to be a good thing, I see.
> >> >Guess it wasn't one of your families' money, so what the heck.
> >>
> >> Circa 1960, my family's assets were about $1-1/2 million in land and a
> >> business. Rather than seeing it developed, my grandfather sold the
> >> land for $400,000 to a charitable organization: $100,000 each went to
> >> my father and aunt, who had each been given 1/4 of the land, and my
> >> grandparents kept $200,000 for their retirement. In each case, the
> >> money was taxed, presumably as a realized capital gain. I'm not
> >> complaining.
> >
> >So it wasnt one of your families fortunes that was wiped out.
>
> Well, let's see: we gave away $1.1 million, about 3/4 of what we had,
> and then paid taxes on the remainder. I'd say we did our duty, and I
> see no cause to feel sympathy for those -- many with much more -- who
> had to pay inheritance taxes.

Duty, or choice? Your grandfather CHOSE to sell it to the charitable
organization, because he didnt want to see it developed.

>
> >> >> I disagree. Wealth consists of ownership. Own a business, and you
get
> >> >> a slice of the labor that people put into that business, a slice of
> >> >
> >> >Uhmmm...thats because the employer pays for their labor.
> >>
> >> Nope. It's because the owners own a piece of paper, and that piece of
> >> paper gives them a slice of the company's profits.
> >
> >And the owner pays the employee for the labor via the paycheck.
>
> Which means nothing: we're talking about profits.

It does mean something - without the business, the person wouldn't have a
job.
Without the employee....well...unless its a highly specific job, there'd be
another who could do the job.

>
> >> >> what people pay to purchase its products. Own a bond, and you own a
> >> >
> >> >Because I'm providing a service - good location, convenient hours, or
> >just
> >> >having what folks want.
> >>
> >> >> debt -- the right to receive interest and principal. In effect,
wealth
> >> >
> >> >Becuase they get to use my money (for whatever) and I don't
> >>
> >> Money is nothing, just pieces of paper. What matters here is what that
> >> piece of paper represent.
> >
> >So if money is nothing, why're you complaining about folks who are
wealthy?
>
> Because what matter is what those pieces of paper represent -- the
> right to draw upon the resources of others.

They pay for those resources with those pieces of paper.

>
> >> Now if you built up that business, if you took risks and worked hard,
> >> you reserve to reward for its success. That's common sense and it's an
> >> important part of our economic system, since it provides incentive.
> >
> >Yes, it does. Glad you see that.
>
> I'm not arguing against incentive, but rather against it's opposite,
> long-term welfare dependency.

Oh? Thought you were arguing against inheritance.

>
> >> But if you did /nothing/ to build up that business -- didn't lend it
> >> money you'd earned, didn't roll up your sleeves and work at it
> >> yourself -- you deserve nothing. Getting some pieces of paper -- money
> >> -- from your Dad puts you in precisely the same position as a medieval
> >> lord who inherited an estate, and gets money from his tenant farmers
> >> because his great-great-great-great grandpappy sent troops. Except
> >> that the medieval lord had to work for his living, or the lord next
> >> door would appropriate his land. Today's heir is more like the
> >> 18th-century aristocrat, a do-nothing who rides about in ever fancier
> >> carriages unless the people get tired of it and chop off his head.
> >
> >However, the tax code does not recognize those who work in the family
> >business and those who d soemthing else like, say, go into politics.
>
> It doesn't have to, because the work they actually put into it is
> recompensed through wages and other compensation (including,
> sometimes, additional ownership).

Wait just one minute! Earlier you acted like it doesnt matter that employees
get paid - now it does?
:-)

>
> >> Our forefathers had the good sense to wise up, albeit in lieu of
> >> decapitation they sent the lordlings to freeze their butts off in
> >> Canada.
> >
> >Or joined ROTC then, when finding they had a high lottery number, chose
to
> >reneg on the committment.
>
> Or avoided Vietnam by having Daddy get them into a rich boy's unit of
> the National Guard, use his influence to get a coveted pilot's slot

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

> despite having scored poorly on the qualifying exam, took time off to
> work on a political campaign, didn't even bother to show up at his new
> posting, then lied about it and had the military destroy both the
> original records /and/ the microfilmed backups.

Got proof he had the military destory the records? :-)
Or just a guess?
I could likely ague what e;lse was said, but doubt it'd do any good.

>
> Oh, and smeared at least two genuine war heroes, John McCain and John
> Kerry.

Don't recall Bush "smearing" either one.
Has Kerry ever released his medical records?

>
> >> >> allows you get to suck some blood out of the economic activities of
> >> >> others whether they like it or not. So it's just like a tax, a tax
> >> >> that benefits you.
> >> >
> >> >You've GOT to be kidding me?!!? Wealth or economic activities are just
> >like
> >> >a tax?
> >> >:-)
> >> >But they do have a choice - they dont have to buy at my store, work
for
> >me,
> >> >or sell bonds to me.
> >>
> >> There's no choice, unless you can buy all your goods at a non-profit
> >> organization.
> >
> >Ahh...so its just capitalism you seem to have a problem with.
> >Ok.
>
> That has much the same relationship to a sequitur as a fender has to a
> duck.

Lets see.....given what you've said, it does seem to me that you have a
problem with capitalism.
Ok, maybe someone can be successful, profitable, as long as they don't get
too far ahead.
Am I wrong?

<snip>

<snip>
> >
> >But its already been taxed - a couple of times, usually.
>
> True -- well, partially true, because I assume the transfer is likely
> to consist largely of unrealized capital gains. But it's going to a
> new person, which if you think about it, is when we usually tax money.
> I think you could make a better case for the abolition of the
> corporate income tax, which may be economically counterproductive in
> that it penalizes successful companies. (I say may because the
> contribution to entrepreneurial endeavors might compensate, at least
> in part, for that gap).

If I choose to give you a particular valuable art object, that wouldn't (or
shouldn't at least to my understanding) be counted as income. I'd think the
basis would be transferred though, so that if it cost me $400.00, and had
appreciated to $50,000.00 then you'd pay the capital gains when its sold.
Thats when it becomes income.
The $400.00 used originally to buy the item, had been taxed previously.

>
> >> thus reducing a particularly glaring moral inequality, reducing the
> >> budget deficit, and avoiding the negative effects of long-term welfare
> >> dependency. And I've seen those effects -- talented friends who,
> >> because they don't have to work, don't make the contributions that
> >> they otherwise would. It doesn't affect everybody any more than
> >
> >And that is their choice.
>
> As it is for Joe the Welfare Recipient. Again, the difference? Other
> than the fact that Joseph the Heir of a Great Family Fortune gets a
> much larger welfare check, thereby emptying our pockets far more
> effectively than Joe the Welfare Recipient could ever hope to do?
>

Its not welfare - welfare comes from the government.
Your pockets are not emptied, and indeed, you culd actually gain, from the
investments managed as part of the trust, stocks, bonds, etc.

Dennis


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