Text 920, 181 rader
Skriven 2006-05-29 13:03:00 av Robert E Starr JR (1366.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Atheists: America's m
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"Paul Harper" <paul@harper.net> wrote in message 
news:lj1m72ddd0ptmg160fpodnunkrh3emt9sj@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 May 2006 14:32:47 +0000 (UTC), "Carl"
> <cengman7@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't think that you have to "evolve" beyond religion, politics, etc.
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see exactly that as
> fundamental and crucial to the survival of us as a species and all
> those other species on the planet we will take with us during our exit
> fall.
>
>>There's nothing wrong with a belief system as long as you don't try to
>>impose yours on me and I don't try to impose mine on you.  We're never 
>>going
>>to completely agree on everything, nor would it be healthy for us to do 
>>so.
>
> Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. [It is my belief that] We only
> have a limited amount of time left when we can afford the luxury of an
> overly self-centred existence. "I" *has* to have a limited shelf life
> now. We are going to have to ditch all of that and start becoming a
> lot more wider-focused. In between AIDS, assorted health pandemics,
> global warming and various energy crises that are here or looming, the
> "I'm alright Jack" approach to existence is an evolutionary dead end.
>
> The sooner we all realise we're in this mess together and start
> thinking together and equally about resolving it the better.
>
> Sadly, I doubt we're capable of it to any meaningful degree outside of
> fiction. There are too many people too entrenched in their separate
> powerbases to allow such a utopia to exist. "We're all equal, but I'm
> more equal than you are" to paraphrase someone who knew a lot about
> the topic.

I agree that we're not capable of it. I don't agree that it's necessary.

There is always a balance that a person to establish for themselves as to 
how much of their time, effort, money, etc that they're willing to give to 
others.  I'm willing to give up more for the benefit of my family than for 
someone else's family.  That doesn't mean I think someone else's kids have 
less inherent value; it means that I have a particular strong bond (and 
responsibility) with my family that makes me willing to sacrifice more for 
them than for others.  I would not expect any other parent to behave 
differently.

That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't cooperate with and help each other. 
Clearly we'd all be better off if we could leverage our commonality rather 
than our fears...but there are differences between people that aren't solved 
simply by agreeing that we're all in this together.  Quite the contrary; 
many of our differences exist because people disagree on the method of 
"helping" each other.

>>People need to understand that the the people on the "other" side of any
>>fence may have good reasons for being there.  We might disagree with them,
>>but that doesn't make the reasons invalid or the other person bsd or even
>>wrong".   Their reasons are every bit as compelling (from their side) as
>>ours are for us....and there aren't going to be many instances in which 
>>even
>>two people are always going to be on the same side of the fence across
>>multiple issues.  The same people on the other side of one fence on one
>>issue might be on your side when it comes to another issue.
>
> Fences are great. Kinda like levees. Nature has a way of dealing with
> fences! Much better not to have them - or need them - and to be in
> tune with Nature in the first place.

Except that right now it's "Natural" for people to build them, just as it's 
natural for many animals to be territorial.  People become territorial over 
emotional issues too. That's going to exist as long as someone feels 
threatened and feels the need for a "safe" place (both physically and 
emotionally.  With society that comes through political parties, causes, 
churches, etc.  It's inevitable as long as people disagree.

It's not enough even to get most people to agree on something; all it takes 
is for a few people to do something badf and people will want to circle the 
wagons again.

>
>>I don't necessarily blame any particular power base.  People need to make 
>>up
>>their own mind rather than relinquishing their right to having their own
>>opinions.  A power structure will always take advantage of the people that
>>let them.
>
> Absolutely. It takes a considerable amount of strength to withstand
> the power structures. In between the onslaughts of media, politics,
> religion and commerce, the forces reigned against individual thought
> and action are immense. It's also insidious - quite frequently those
> collections of people who consider themselves lucky to have a lot of
> individual freedom are among those with least. They just don't know
> it.

And yet those same forces consider themselves as giving a voice to their 
constituents....and people give power to those forces to have a voice for
their particular viewpoint.


> Usually when such an individual (or group of individuals [I am aware
> of the oxymoron here]) is detected, the entrenched powerbases take
> active steps to convert, remove or destroy them.

It's not necessarily an individual...it's any opposing viewpoint.  Villify 
the other side before their opinion is heard. Discredit them any way 
possible.
Come up with a sound bite that distorts their views and make them seem 
extremist.

>
>>Even that power structure will usually think they are doing
>>something for the benefit of those people.  Everyone rationalizes their 
>>own
>>views.
>
> That's the PR view of powerbases: "We're doing it for you, honest".
> The reality from within the oligarchies is somewhet different.

I doubt any group sits back and say :What evil can we do today?" More likely 
they consider that the end justifies the means and they
consider their ends as for the greater good.

>
> Sadly, the Peter Principle holds as true today as it did when the book
> was written, which is why we're in such a mess. They're powerful,
> ambitious.... and incompetent.

I think that's overly damning.  Ambition is not bad... a particularly 
ambition may be, but the desire to accomplish something is not bad.  That 
ambition may be to feed the hungry, cure cancer, find a new abundant, clean, 
and renewable energy source. Clearly bad things have been done in the name 
of most churches or faiths, but good has also been done in their name too. 
Bads things have been done for money, but there have been new inventions and 
ideas that came from the desire to feed oneself and one's family too. 
Guttenberg comes to mind (I refer you to James Burke, who does the story 
much better justice than I could).

Power is not necessarily bad either.  We have the power to accomplish many 
things.  Grow and preserve food for the masses....bring fresh water to 
barren areas.  We have the power to coordinater relief efforts for people 
suffering from catastropies around the world within hours (granted we don't 
always do anywhere near a good enough job).  Power is another word for 
ability.

Incompetence exists everywhere.

We could all come up with endless examples in which a person might do 
something that seems evil until you understand all of the circumstances and 
understand what the person is trying to do.  People are too willing to 
accuse, villify and condemn others without considering the other person's 
context and reasons.

I don't think it's possible to get rid of the fences...but if we could get 
people to stop being so absolute in their own views and consider that the 
people on the other side of the fence think the fence protects them from you 
too and may you stop and wonder why they feel the same need, perhaps it 
would get people to think more and condemn less.

If a person is absolutely certain of their convictions, the guy on the other 
side of the fence really needs the fence.


Okay, I think I've really overdone that metaphor.

Carl

"Remember this, foolish mortals, when ye stare headlong into the mind-
paralyzing void, the inky black nothingness of existence, the hellish 
yawning
maw of the abyss -- it's pretty damn dark, so give it a few minutes for your
eyes to adjust."
Frank M. Carrano, Branford, Conn
                                                     
--- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
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