Text 549, 107 rader
Skriven 2005-11-15 11:50:32 av George Pope (1:153/715.1275)
    Kommentar till text 546 av Steve Asher (3:800/432.0)
Ärende: Laws, Noachian
======================
On (15 Nov 05) Steve Asher wrote to George Pope...
 SA> LAW AND GRACE, WORKS  AND CHRIST
 SA>
 SA> What is the relationship of law to grace and how do we reconcile the
 SA> commands in the OT law with grace. So many say the grace is there to
 SA> keep the law, but the bible states in the NT that if you fail to keep
 SA> one of the laws you have broken them all. This is the very reason we
 SA> are under grace. In the OT there was grace under the surface of the
 SA> law in the NT grace rules over the law. If you failed in one of the
 SA> commands the way it was dealt with was by sacrifice. The NT we are not
 SA> under grace to keep the law of the OT because the scripture makes it
 SA> clear no one can. It is Jesus who kept the law where we could not he
 SA> kept it absolutely perfectly. Every requirement small or large was
 SA> kept in the absolute way God required it of man. So Christ lived a
 SA> perfect righteous life even to the point of his death on the cross.

Are you seriously trying to deny Christ's own words that say not only
must you not murder, but you must not even BE UNRIGHTEOUSLY ANGRY???

And Peter, Paul, and the rest of the post-crucifixion apostles, who
agreed that three laws remain in effect for all Christians:
-not to murder
-not to commit adultery
-not to commit cruelty to animals ("abstain from blood" refers to the
Noachide prohibition of tearing a limb from a living animal, and other
laws regarding respect of animal life, in not eating the life's blood,
and of burying the blood)

 SA> So many do good works because they think it is demanded of them,
 SA> instead of it flowing out of natural lifestyle of faith.

When it comes to murder or not murder, it IS demanded of you!

 SA> The old covenant was for the Jews only. For one to be under the Old
 SA> covenant they need to convert to Judaism. In the new covenant, it is
 SA> for both Jews and gentiles. In Eph.2 when we believe in Christ we
 SA> becomes part of the body of Christ, not Judaism. God made a whole new
 SA> entity called the church, the body of Christ, and filled it with his
 SA> spirit to operate in his ways.

The Jews were given their own covenant that included parts of the
universal covenant of law. . .
But the commandments given to Noah were incumbent, through God's
sovereign authority, on Noah, and all his seed(ie. everybody) as the
bare minimum for moral/etc. life.

 SA> Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath He (Jesus) obtained a more excellent
 SA> ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a "Better Covenant,
 SA> which was established upon "Better" Promises". The new covenant is Not
 SA> a covenant of works but rest in his work. By it all the Body of Christ
 SA> ' is not under of the condemning ministry of the law (2 Cor. 3:9; Rom.
 SA> 8:1-2 there is no condemnation), since believers are not under the law
 SA> they are beyond its grasp to condemn.(Rom. 3:19).

so again, you interpret this to mean that it's permissible for
Christians to commit murder & adultery?

And this sounds like something that fits in with who God is?
This also sounds to you like something Jesus preached/exemplified?

 SA> Paul states in Rom. 6:14..." for you are not under law but under
 SA> grace." He also makes it clear in Gal. 5:18 "if you are led by the
 SA> Spirit, you are not under the law."  The previous verses state "so
 SA> that you do not do the things that you wish." The Law is not given to
 SA> the Christian as the standard to live by, but to show the unbeliever
 SA> how below the standard we do live, as Paul states in 1 Tim.1:9 The Law
 SA> is for the unrighteous.

He wasn't addressing murderers, adulterers, etc., but perhaps FORMER all
those. . .

He was addressing those who had sincerely been born again and whose
lives no longer included such things -- later in the Christian Bible, he
and others make it clear that those who murder,lie, cheat, steal,
fornicate, etc., are clearly NOT members of the [re]new[ed] Covenant!

 SA> In the dispensation of grace, "the law is not of faith." Today faith
 SA> and law are mutually exclusive. In Israel's dispensation of law, faith
 SA> and law were equally beneficial, one needed both (Rom. 10:5-6,

The Hebrew faith is not like the Roman Catholic "faith" or even the
Protestant one. . .

The Hebrew faith refers to "trust based on eyewitness knowledge"
In this respect, the epistles speak of faith in the same way, because
their audience were witness to Jesus' life et al!

 SA> Righteousness we need cannot come from the Law. For the law demands
 SA> perfect obedience.

This would be the law that Jesus himself said would not pass away, not a
"jot or tittle" any time before the end of the universe?

 SA> This time was Israel's, as a whole nation under the law. But when God
 SA> moved from law to grace, Israel resisted that move, preferring the old
 SA> program of rules and regulations from Moses, illustrating the danger
 SA> of law. The law looks appealing today, but it separates those who
 SA> embrace it from the Spirit of grace.

Do you think God gave His Torah(law) without grace inherent to it?
Is it possible for God to so separate His divine nature of grace/love?

Because I care,
<+]::-{)}  (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))

--- PPoint 1.76
 * Origin: Cyberpope pointing via Bandmaster BBS! (1:153/715.1275)