Text 17307, 110 rader
Skriven 2008-12-04 16:46:47 av Glen Jamieson
     Kommentar till en text av Dave Sacerdote
Ärende: RECOVERY 285  81204
===========================
 -=> Quoting Dave Sacerdote to Glen Jamieson <=-

 GJ> That is my point.  Did the Romans actually use lead vessels for
 GJ> cooking, drinking or eating?  Bronze (copper and tin) is far better
 GJ> for that purpose.  Roman artifacts of that type which I have seen are
 GJ> bronze or pottery.

 DS> From a page on lead poisoning from the University of Kentucky:

 DS> "Spoilage was a problem in ancient Rome, and vintners discovered 
 DS> that wine tasted better and lasted longer if it was mixed with 
 DS> a concentrated grape syrup called sapa. The best sapa was boiled 
 DS> in lead pots, allowing lead to leach into the syrup. When sapa 

Why boil it in lead pots when there were other far more practical pots
made of bronze and clay?  Where is the evidence that lead was used?

 DS> was mixed with wine, it sweetened it and also poisoned the
 DS> microorganisms that cause fermentation and souring. Sapa was 
 DS> also used in fruit and honey drinks, and as a food preservative.

The Romans in Barcelona added honey to sweeten wine; also salt.  These
were kept in clay pots (I've seen 'em!).

 DS> Josef Eisinger estimated a Roman consuming a liter of wine a 
 DS> day would ingest about 20 mg of lead per day, which he said 
 DS> was more than enough to produce chronic lead poisoning.

If that Roman lived and drank his wine for 30 years, he would have
consumed over 200 g of lead, which would have made a mess of the drink
pot.  Perhaps no one has found any of these lead pots because they have
all been drunk or otherwise dissolved away.

I have no argument about the toxic effects of lead, but only about
whether the Romans did actually use them.

 DS> A cultural shift at the height of the Roman Empire made it 
 DS> socially acceptable for wives to drink wine, to which
 DS> Gilfillan attributed a declining birth rate and a low rate 
 DS> of surviving children among the wealthy. Today, the reproductive 
 DS> effects of lead are well established, as are the effects on 
 DS> childhood development and learning disabilities."

I fully agree with you on the effect of lead on children's mental
development, as that has been investigated in detail in families living
near lead mines and refineries here.

 DS> http://ces.ca.uky.edu/energy/lead/rome_lead.htm

Next time I log onto the I'net I shall read that, to see what evidence
they have of the existence of lead vessels, and the data regarding the
rate of absorption of lead into wine.

 DS> BTW, I can vouch firsthand for the sweet taste of lead.  Skin
 DS> picks up lead easily via handling (as when glazing a leaded
 DS> window) and it can be easy sometimes to inadvertently touch
 DS> one's mouth.

And you have been doing that for some time, I think?  Hmmm.  OK, I have
also used a lot of solder in my time.  Have you done any "lead burning"
of waste-water plumbing fixtures?  That is skill which seems to have
died out.
 
 DS> Did you realize that historically, pottery glazes have 
 DS> contained large amounts
 DS> of lead which also easily leach into beverages?
 
 GJ> I wonder if that is so.  I would expect a good, high 
 GJ> temperature glaze to be impervious to any liquids.

 DS> There have been several recalls in the US of ceramics with high lead
 DS> content in the colorful glazes.  The beverages themselves
 DS> don't penetrate the glaze, but acids in the food or drink 
 DS> leach the lead.

That sounds contradictory.  If the acid beverages can't penetrate, how
can they dissolve the lead salts?

 DS> Perhaps, given your suspicion of North American sources, you'd
 DS> prefer some info closer to home:

 DS> http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/airquality/publications/cerami
 DS> cs.html 
 DS> (It's an article from the Australian Government's Office of
 DS> Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts entitled
 DS> Lead Alert Facts: Lead in Ceramics.)

I shall study that, also.  Hopefully I shall be enlightened.

 DS> They even mention lead crystal, which perhaps you also consider
 DS> "impervious:"
 DS> "Leaded crystal may contain anywhere between 14% and 36% lead 
 DS> oxide. Spirits kept in crystal decanters for a long time can 
 DS> become heavily contaminated."

Like my old sherry decanter and glasses, which my parents used for some
60 years?
 
 GJ> My own theory for its demise was decline in the quality of its 
 GJ> leaders.

 DS> You do understand the difference between "contributing factor"
 DS> and "cause," right?

Both terms could be applicable to the leaders of declining Roman.

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