Text 17353, 117 rader
Skriven 2008-12-04 17:37:08 av Michael Loo (1:18/200.0)
     Kommentar till en text av Glen Jamieson
Ärende: lead and stuff 320
==========================
This is reconstructed from a destroyed file that owes its
destruction to my accidentally hitting the Windows key,
which now has been levered off the keyboard.

 -=> Glen Jamieson said to Dave Sacerdote <=-

 GJ> That is my point.  Did the Romans actually use lead vessels for
 GJ> cooking, drinking or eating?  Bronze (copper and tin) is far better
 GJ> for that purpose.  Roman artifacts of that type which I have seen are
 GJ> bronze or pottery.
 DS> From a page on lead poisoning from the University of Kentucky:
 DS> "Spoilage was a problem in ancient Rome, and vintners discovered 
 DS> that wine tasted better and lasted longer if it was mixed with 
 DS> a concentrated grape syrup called sapa. The best sapa was boiled 
 DS> in lead pots, allowing lead to leach into the syrup. When sapa 
 GJ> Why boil it in lead pots when there were other far more practical pots

Because lead made it taste better!

 GJ> made of bronze and clay? Where is the evidence that lead was used?

I don't like the tone you're taking, young man.

Pliny, Naturalis Historia XIV:

  Ipsa quoque defruta ac sapas, cum sit caelum sine luna, hoc 
  est in sideris eius coitu, neque alio die coqui iubent, 
  praeterea plumbeis vasis, non aereis, nucibusque iuglandibus 
  additis; eas enim fumum excipere.

Also, this same must and sap must be cooked on a moonless night, 
that is in the conjunction with its planet, and no other day,
ought to be cooked rather in vessels of lead, not bronze, with
walnuts added, for these dilute the smokiness.
[on the fly translation]

 DS> was mixed with wine, it sweetened it and also poisoned the
 DS> microorganisms that cause fermentation and souring. Sapa was 
 DS> also used in fruit and honey drinks, and as a food preservative.
 GJ> The Romans in Barcelona added honey to sweeten wine; also salt.  These
 GJ> were kept in clay pots (I've seen 'em!).

Clay lasts. Bronze lasts. Lead crumbles.

 DS> Josef Eisinger estimated a Roman consuming a liter of wine a 
 DS> day would ingest about 20 mg of lead per day, which he said 
 DS> was more than enough to produce chronic lead poisoning.
 GJ> If that Roman lived and drank his wine for 30 years, he would have
 GJ> consumed over 200 g of lead, which would have made a mess of the drink
 GJ> pot.  Perhaps no one has found any of these lead pots because they
 GJ> have all been drunk or otherwise dissolved away.

Correct.

 GJ> I have no argument about the toxic effects of lead, but only about
 GJ> whether the Romans did actually use them.

Nothing like contemporary accounts, is there.

 DS> They even mention lead crystal, which perhaps you also consider
 DS> "impervious:"
 DS> "Leaded crystal may contain anywhere between 14% and 36% lead 
 DS> oxide. Spirits kept in crystal decanters for a long time can 
 DS> become heavily contaminated."
 GJ> Like my old sherry decanter and glasses, which my parents used for
 GJ> some 60 years?

Birth defects? H'm.

 GJ> My own theory for its demise was decline in the quality of its 
 GJ> leaders.
 DS> You do understand the difference between "contributing factor"
 DS> and "cause," right?
 GJ> Both terms could be applicable to the leaders of declining Roman.

That's his point!

 -=> Glen Jamieson said to Hap Newsom <=-

 HN> Hawaii, Guam, Johnson Island, Wake, and Kwajalein.
 GJ> Hmmm.  Hawaii and Guam are North Pacific.  Not sure about Wake and
 GJ> Kwajalein, but I think they are north of the equator.  Don't know
 GJ> Johnson Island at all.

All of these are in the region geographers refer to as
Central Pacific but is vernacularly called South Pacific,
a term that would otherwise be significantly underused, for
if it referred exclusively to land masses south of the
Equator, it would have limited not to say negligible utility.

I think it's Johnston Island.

Sausages and grapes
cat: odd, fat, text only
servings: 1

  From: Big Boy
    To: All
  Subj: Sausages and grapes
Here's a great "love that fat" recipe that is so simple it's wicked
Nyuk!  I saw it on a Great Chefs show once and have eaten it 50 times
since Nyuk!

Take 2 big sweet Italian sausages and nestle on the top of a half
pound of red (flame) grapes in a casserole dish.  Bake 10 min. at
the highest oven temp.  Turn sausages over at the 5 min. point.
That's it Nyuk!  To serve take casserole out of oven, put the
sausages on a plate, stir a big pat of cold butter into the casserole
and swirl around until butter melts.  Pour grape-butter mixture over
the sausages, then top with scallions.

For a side dish make some mashed potatoes with some butter & heavy
cream stirred in.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30

--- Maximus/2 3.01
 * Origin: Get your COOKING fix here! - nsbbs.info (1:18/200)