Text 24278, 157 rader
Skriven 2009-05-21 22:38:00 av Glen Jamieson
     Kommentar till en text av Hap Newsom
Ärende: SMART SUBS  90521
=========================
 -=> Quoting Hap Newsom to Glen Jamieson <=-

Hello Hap,

 ->  ->  HN> Key word is "undetected"...they can (a) gather
 ->  ->  HN> intelligence data from foreign shores,(b) insert
 ->  ->  HN> operational teams ashore, (c) track enemy sea
 ->  ->  HN> maneuvers, (d) destroy enemy surface vessels,
 ->  ->  HN> (e) protect friendly vessels and shipping lanes,
 ->  ->  HN> (f)launch conventional warheaded cruise missles
 -> 
 ->  -> At present the main friendly vessels needing protection (e) are in the
 ->  -> Strait of Malacca and the Indian Ocean which are subject to piratical
 ->  -> attacks. I don't know how fast our new submarines are, but if they
 ->  -> could out-run the pirates' speedboats and have the range they could 
 ->  -> quite useful there. Naturally I don't know what weaponry our new subs
 ->  -> are likely to be equipped with, but medium range cruise missiles would
 ->  -> be a logical addition to expensive torpedoes.  A small cannon to fire
 ->  -> at the pirates would be useful.
 ->  -> 
 ->  HN> There is a lot of data that a sattelite can not
 ->  HN> gather. And I've seen Aussie's in action and
 ->  HN> they can hold their own with belligerence! And
 -> 
 -> Only when roused!  (G)  We don't have any empire building ambitions.
 -> 
 HN> Have you ever seen an Aussie 
 HN> Naval Crew take over a bar?? (grin)
 
Fortunately I have so far managed to avoid that danger!  Getting
between an Australian sailor and his beer would certainly be life
threatening, though!

 ->  HN> be. Since most of Australia's imports and exports
 ->  HN> go via the Sea, being able to defend shipping
 ->  HN> lanes and ensure continuity of commerce is a 
 ->  HN> strong selling point.  A sub does not need to
 ->  HN> be able to outrun or catch a Pirate's speedboat.
 ->  HN> they can (a) simply track them to a "destination",
 -> 
 -> That is an interesting possibility, if the snorkling sub quietly
 -> followed a would-be pirate boat until it turned into a real one, then
 -> suddenly surfaced nearby, with a weapon pointed at the pirates.
 ->
 HN> Most likely not snorkeling, running on 
 HN> electric power. The new generations 
 HN> of diesel electrics are fast, quiet, and 
 HN> capable of quite a bit only on electric
 HN> power. 

I would not expect pirate ships to be equipped with sonar detectors.
 
 ->  HN> out. Torpedoes are not too expensive and are
 ->  HN> quite effective. I don't see deck guns on 
 ->  HN> subs as a big factor, but a couple of good
 ->  HN> sized automatic rifles carried topside and 
 ->  HN> mounted in exisitng mounts can do a lot. 
 -> 
 -> When being shown over an Oberon class sub in Fremantle recently I was
 -> told that the torpedoes cost some hundreds of thousands of $$$ each.
 -> Pirates are becoming quite a problem in some parts of the world, and
 -> they are getting better armed.  I think one of the difficult aspects
 -> to dealing with them is that they don't hoist the Jolly Roger any
 -> more to identify themselves.  They remain peaceful navigators of the
 -> high seas right up to the point where they point guns at, or board
 -> ships.  Submarines could locate and shadow pirate "mother ships" and
 -> warn other naval vessels.   As pirates now use high powered rifles and
 -> RPGs, a small cannon mounted on a sub would enable the sub to remain
 -> out of range of the RPGs while firing at the pirates.
 ->
 HN> Torpedoes are far less expensive than 
 HN> cruise missles and such...and there are 
 HN> many "dumb" torps that work just as 
 HN> well as their more expensive cousins.

Yes, I suppose there are different kinds of torpedoes, and the
"intelligent" ones could come quite expensive...

 HN> I'm more of a pragmatist, I'm in favor 
 HN> of simply torping the mother ship and 
 HN> letting nature (and hungry sharks) take
 HN> care of business from then on...A much

Naughty, naughty!!  I fear someone might object to that action,
tempting though it may be.

 HN> stronger deterrent than capture and imprisonment
 HN> in a cell that's probably more comfy than
 HN> the oringal home. However a deck mounted
 HN> weapon is a problem in several ways. first
 HN> it detracts from the "aerodynamic" design
 HN> of the hull, and second it will make "noise"
 HN> as the sub moves at speed, third it would
 HN> be exposed to the corrosive effects of the 
 HN> salt water, making reliability a problem. 
 
The Japanese used deck guns in WW2, when they shelled the Australian
east coast.  In the museum at Newcastle there is the remains of a
shell casing that was found in Mrs Murphy's back garden after a
Japanese attack.  I can remember seeing pictures of streamlined
cowlings used to seal off guns while the boat was under water.

 -> As I typed that, I heard a news item about 2 Australian frigates which
 -> were on training exercises in the Gulf of Aden when they responded to
 -> an emergency call to rescue a ship under fire from pirates.  The
 -> success of that operation may well result in Australia stationing
 -> naval ships there permanently, as that Gulf is the main route for
 -> Australian exports to Europe.
 ->  
 HN> Sink em on sight I say.

It would help if the Somali government (if any) cooperated in removing
the pirates' shore bases.
 
 -> I like the idea of submarines, and think they have uses in the future,
 -> but probably in new fields.  One point that you haven't mentioned is
 -> the proven ability of a sub to travel beneath the Arctic ice floes to
 -> reach otherwise inaccessible areas.  I remember reading of a Russian
 -> sub planting a flag at the North Pole.  Now if a substantial oil field
 -> was found there, that could be worth fighting over.
 ->
 HN> Going under the pole is not a big
 HN> thing anymore. Lots of subs have 
 HN> done it by now. It's pretty shallow
 HN> up there and not a place where 
 HN> subs would be very happy operating.

At times subs are the only means of getting there.
 
 -> younger days I worked on the design and development of a directional
 -> sensing, air launched sono-buoy.  (I was your "enemy"!)  Two of those
 -> dropped into the sea from an Orion could track a submarine (or surface
 -> craft at night) for 30 miles or so - but only if it made a noise.  The
 -> Magnetic Anomaly Detector in the "sting" on the tail of the Orion will
 -> only work if the plane is flying directly over the submerged boat.
 -> 
 HN> There's a local PC-3 Orion that flies training missions 
 HN> around here...I give it rude gestures whenever I 
 HN> see it...although I can say my sub was never
 HN> detected, even when our own Anti sub units
 HN> were trying to track us. Modern subs now are
 HN> even more stealthy than they were in my day.
 HN> Once we "shadowed" a carrier group for three 
 HN> days and they never knew we were there..we 
 HN> worked firing solutions for 6 ships with certainty 
 HN> of kill shots of over 95%. When we turned that
 HN> report in at the end of our patrol I can bet that
 HN> the captains of those ships, and the commander
 HN> of the carrier group got an earfull from CincPac
 HN> (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet)

That would have been most satisfying.  I read that our Collins class
subs "sank" quite a few "enemy" ships during the last naval exercises.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]

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 * Origin: Braintap BBS Adelaide Australia (3:800/449)