Text 17749, 172 rader
Skriven 2005-12-04 09:44:00 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Sociopaths!
===================
-=> Quoting Michiel Van Der Vlist to Frank Scheidt <=-

 >> *What* "freedom fighters"?

 MVDV>> You know who we are talking about.
 
 > It seems you look upon murderers with some affection ...

 MVDV> Appearances can be deceptive.

That's good to know ...

 MVDV>> Terrorist or freedom fighter, it is all a matter of perspective.
 MVDV>> Just as "murder" or "collateral damage". In the end it is those
 MVDV>> who write the history books that say which is what.
 
 > Not so.  A terrorist is one who is trying to terrorize a mass
 > of people through his terrible actions.

 MVDV> That is how it looks in the eyes of the enemy of his people.
 
But, viewed *objectively* the terrorist is an evil person doing 
evil deeds ... I presume you object to murder ... maybe I'm 
mistaken in that belief ...

 > A freedom fighter, OTOH, is fighting an *enemy* to achieve
 > freedom for his people.

 MVDV> That is how it looks in the eyes of his people.

See above, re "objectively"

 MVDV> All a matter of perspective.

Not really -- if the observer is *objective*.  For example I can 
*easily* see the terrorists are evil incarnate ... and *I* am 
objective.
 
 > There's no way one could look upon the murderers who killed
 > three thousand innocent people that way!

 MVDV> Of course there is a way. Just look at it from their point of view.

But that's an *insane* point-of-view.  Do you support insanity?
 
 > It was done *deliberately*

 MVDV> And the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an accident?

We were talking about *terrorists*!  Stay focussed!
 
 > for no adequate reason which makes it murder.

 MVDV> For them the reason was adequate: they wanted to teach the US a
 MVDV> lessen. Unfortunateley it didn't take.
 
They were all insane.  Insane men cannot teach anyone a "lesson" 
...

 >> thousands of innocent people in the Twin Towers.

 MVDV>> In a true democracy there are no innocent people. Every voter bears
 MVDV>> responsibility for the results of the choices he/she made. The people
 MVDV>> are an accomplice in the acts committed by their leaders.
 
 > So you are admitting the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
 > *were* guilty!

 MVDV> You are getting too predictable Frank, I knew you were going to say
 MVDV> that. Now read again: "in a true democracy" I wrote. Was Japan a true
 MVDV> democracy in 1945? Don't think so.

Now you ask me a question then answer it without letting me 
respond ... [sigh] ...
 
 > I had never looked upon it that way, considering only
 > the military objectives of the bombing.

 MVDV> Military objectives my foot! The obvious objective was to "teach them
 MVDV> a lesson". To scare the shit out of them by killing as many people as
 MVDV> possible. 

The rail marshalling yards were the target ...

 MVDV> It perfectly fits your definition of "terrorist".
 
No way!

 > Actually I never really considered the people there to be
 > truly *guilty* -- only unlucky.

 MVDV> And maybe that is how Mohammed Atta looked upon the people in the twin
 MVDV> towers: unlucky.

I doubt that he actually did *any* thinking.  If he had, he'd 
have bombed Saudi Arabia ...

 MVDV>> 9/11 is something that the USA brought onto itself. The
 MVDV>> people of the USA were not innocent bystanders in the
 MVDV>> chain of events that led up to it.
 
 > What was the "chain of events" as you see it?

 MVDV> For one: the unconditional support of Israel, thereby committing a
 MVDV> grave injustice against the people of Palestine.
 
While I have long opposed the support of Israel by many American 
politicians (in fact I oppose supporting *any* foreign gummint) 
if the powers-to-be here decide to support Israel they have the 
right to do so.  I have *long* proposed a 100% hands-off policy 
WRT the Israel/Palestine conflict.  Let them fight it out and let 
the best men win (grammatically the "better men")  So that was no 
excuse for the murderers.

 > Or do you fear  I'll demolish it?  ... heh heh heh ...

 MVDV> No doubt you will come up with some lame excuse for every action of
 MVDV> the US that led to this form of asymetric warfare.

Hardly a "lame excuse".  I've demolished your feeble arguments.
 
 >> One then should make *certain* a given person *has* mistreated
 >> one before one attacks that given person.

 MVDV>> I am sure the people who took revenge against the USA by destroying
 MVDV>> the twin towers were just as sure of their case as you are when you
 MVDV>> claim the war against Iraq is justified...

 > Merely "believing" something doesn't make it *true*!

 MVDV> You guys should have thought of that before attacking Irak on the
 MVDV> pretext that there were WMD's.

There was no "pretext".  Intelligence sources of *five* nations 
had assured us there were.  Since they haven't been found, 
obviously Saddam managed to move them.

 MVDV>> Throwing a weapon of mass destruction from the safety of an aircraft
 MVDV>> at altitude and speed is not an act of heroism.
 
 > It was an act of heroism because they didn't know if the bomb
 > would explode in such a way as to kill the plane's crew!

 MVDV> There was the test of the first bomb, they had a fair idea of there
 MVDV> chances. 

"Fair idea" isn't good enough when one is facing death.

 MVDV> Mohammed Atta had the certainty that he would not survive. Does that
 MVDV> make him a super here now?

He was insane!
 
 >> were bombing military targets.

 MVDV>> Military targets my foot! The vast majority of the people in
 MVDV>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians that had done nothing
 MVDV>> to deserve to be brutally murdered and maimed by a weapon
 MVDV>> of mass destruction.
 
 > They were collateral damage -- unlucky to be in the wrong
 > place at the wrong time!

 MVDV> Then so were the people in the twin towers.

Not so.  We weren't at war with Saudi Arabia.

... A fool and his money are soon audited.

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