Text 1778, 155 rader
Skriven 2004-11-12 07:11:53 av Roy Witt (1:10/22)
   Kommentar till text 1745 av Robert Couture (2114.fidonews)
Ärende: Science 1/2
===================
11 Nov 04 13:54, Robert Couture wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

 MvV>> The "no moderators emeriti" rule did not exist before...

 RC> So why should it now?

The 'no moderator emeriti' and other titles has existed for at least two
years now.  That's why the former moderator of AUTOMOTIVE (for 10 years)
is listed as 'moderator emeriti' in the echo rules but not the
echolisting.

 RC>   That doesn't make a lot of sense.  However, you cannot just say
 RC> Moderators Emeriti either.  That is a little vague since that could
 RC> give moderatorship to someone that is not a member of FidoNet anymore
 RC> :)

Right! It's usually someone who is no longer in Fidonet that has given
the echo to someone else before they left. To honor them, they were
formerly listed in the echolisting as emeritis. The rules about those
listings were changed a while back for technical reasons, not Thom's
personal reasons.

 MvV>> Those that promote the echolist keep telling us over and over again
 MvV>> that moderators are totally free in their choice to use or not use
 MvV>> the echolist.

 RC> There is a double standard there.

Not really. Moderators are free to list or not to list. The way to keep
the echo from being stolen if it isn't, is to list it and keep it listed.

The other way is to arrange an agreement with those who distribute the
echo for you and keep the echo privately distributed by invitation or
request.  That was proven for Vlist when Moravisik tried to hijack the
ZCC_PUBLIC echo by listing it in the echolist as being his echo, rather
than the Z2Cs. Those who distributed the echo in Z1 refused to allow
Moravisik control of it. They even changed the echo tag so that the echo
could be distributed here while the listing was corrected.

 MvV>> For a moderator who resides in Z2 and who runs his echo according
 MvV>> to EP1, the logical choice is to not use the echolist.

 RC> Why is that logical?

Because he's being stubborn in his view of how things work in Z1 and
although he knows EP1 has no jurisdiction outside of certain parts of Z2,
he claims to adhere to it for arguements' sake.

 MvV>> Björn however was pressured to "respect the wishes of the Z1
 MvV>> community" and so he reluctantly gave in and attempted to have the
 MvV>> listing updated. I can fully understand that when he ran into an
 MvV>> echolist keeper playing games, that he turned his back on it.

 RC> Yes.  This is a problem.

Problem with that scenario is that Felten already knew that the echo must
be listed and there's no excuse for not doing so. He knows how the
echolist works.

 >> I would have made the listing without the Moderator Emeritus
 >> as moderator, and put it in the DESC field.

 MvV>> IOW, you would have danced to the tune of the echolist keeper.

 RC> Why call it dancing?  What is the necessity of turning this into a
 RC> negativity instead of seeing it for what it was - a positive step to
 RC> a proper conclusion.

Because he wants to make waves, nothing else.

 >> I then would have argued that it is not Thom's position to decide
 >> if editors emeriti as second moderator should be allowed or not.

 MvV>> Argue until you see blue in the face. You would be told (as I was
 MvV>> told) that it is Thom's list and so he makes the rules.

 RC> So?  All that is need to ensure distribution on Z1 backbones for the
 RC> entry to exist.  It matters not what is listed besides the moderators
 RC> name.  The rest is basically frivolous.

Yeup.

 MvV>> Frankly I don't understand why the Z1 community accepts such a
 MvV>> system. When Ward makes a decision they are all up in arms crying
 MvV>> "dictator". Ward is elected and derives his powers from a policy
 MvV>> that we all say we uphold.

 RC> I'll leave Ward out of this because everything he did up to and
 RC> shortly after his removal violated everything within Policy.

 RC> I know you disagree, and I see no need to rehash that issue.

 MvV>> The echolist keeper OTOH is not elected, makes his own rules, and
 MvV>> is not even part of FidoNet. There is no body of appeal, he is lord
 MvV>> and master over his list. What comes closer to a dictator than
 MvV>> that?

 RC> Nothing.  But, as everyone pointed out with DNS, it is not a part of
 RC> FidoNet.

Not only that, but it also lists echos for other networks. In fact, the
author of the software used to list them was written by someone in another
network.

 MvV>> Yet when the echolist keeper makes an arbitrary decision that
 MvV>> affects every echomail participant, the Z1 crowd unites in cheers.

 MvV>> I don't get it.

 RC> I know.  It doesn't make much sense does it.

Because they're very aware of the corrupt former Z2 echolist keeper and
they don't forget very easily. When Adrian Walker announced that his list
would be transferred to Z2 when he would leave Fidonet, not very many
moderators were happy about it. At that time, there were two entities
vying for echolist keeper in Z1, Bob Kohl/Zorch Frezberg, neither
of which were trusted. BK being the elected Z1EC under questionable
circumstances automatically gave Thom the green light when he appeared
with his version. 99.9% of the moderators in Z1 flocked to Thom's list and
the party was over for BK/ZF. You should note that there were some times
that Thom's actions were questionable during certain situations, but he's
overcome any adversity that may have arisen from them.

 >> That was unfortunate.

 MvV>> Yet I did not see you or anyone else who is now preaching "respect
 MvV>> for other zone's rules and tradiions" rise up in protest.

 RC> This is also a fairly new concept.

Why would anyone respect another zone's rules when their rules allow
someone to arbitrarily hijack someone else's echo?

 MvV>> On the contrary. What I heard were smirking sounds to the effect of
 MvV>> "it wouldn't have happened had Björn updated the listing."

 RC> Well, I hate to say it, but it is fact.

 >> If so, I am going to have to retract that.

 MvV>> Ok.

 MvV>> So are you now going to ask the echolist keeper to correct the
 MvV>> list?

 RC> Sure, Hey Thom, correct the echolist.  Do you really think he would
 RC> listen?

Why should Thom change that which has been corrected in light of what
Vlist claimed before it was corrected?


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