Tillbaka till svenska Fidonet
English   Information   Debug  
ENET.LINGUISTIC   0/13
ENET.POLITICS   0/4
ENET.SOFT   0/11701
ENET.SYSOP   33888
ENET.TALKS   0/32
ENGLISH_TUTOR   0/2000
EVOLUTION   0/1335
FDECHO   0/217
FDN_ANNOUNCE   0/7068
FIDONEWS   24094
FIDONEWS_OLD1   13717/49742
FIDONEWS_OLD2   0/35949
FIDONEWS_OLD3   0/30874
FIDONEWS_OLD4   0/37224
FIDO_SYSOP   12852
FIDO_UTIL   0/180
FILEFIND   0/209
FILEGATE   0/212
FILM   0/18
FNEWS_PUBLISH   4393
FN_SYSOP   41678
FN_SYSOP_OLD1   71952
FTP_FIDO   0/2
FTSC_PUBLIC   0/13598
FUNNY   0/4886
GENEALOGY.EUR   0/71
GET_INFO   105
GOLDED   0/408
HAM   0/16069
HOLYSMOKE   0/6791
HOT_SITES   0/1
HTMLEDIT   0/71
HUB203   466
HUB_100   264
HUB_400   39
HUMOR   0/29
IC   0/2851
INTERNET   0/424
INTERUSER   0/3
IP_CONNECT   719
JAMNNTPD   0/233
JAMTLAND   0/47
KATTY_KORNER   0/41
LAN   0/16
LINUX-USER   0/19
LINUXHELP   0/1155
LINUX   0/22090
LINUX_BBS   0/957
mail   18.68
mail_fore_ok   249
MENSA   0/341
MODERATOR   0/102
MONTE   0/992
MOSCOW_OKLAHOMA   0/1245
MUFFIN   0/783
MUSIC   0/321
N203_STAT   924
N203_SYSCHAT   313
NET203   321
NET204   69
NET_DEV   0/10
NORD.ADMIN   0/101
NORD.CHAT   0/2572
NORD.FIDONET   189
NORD.HARDWARE   0/28
NORD.KULTUR   0/114
NORD.PROG   0/32
NORD.SOFTWARE   0/88
NORD.TEKNIK   0/58
NORD   0/453
OCCULT_CHAT   0/93
OS2BBS   0/787
OS2DOSBBS   0/580
OS2HW   0/42
OS2INET   0/37
OS2LAN   0/134
OS2PROG   0/36
OS2REXX   0/113
OS2USER-L   207
OS2   0/4786
OSDEBATE   0/18996
PASCAL   0/490
PERL   0/457
PHP   0/45
POINTS   0/405
POLITICS   0/29554
POL_INC   0/14731
PSION   103
R20_ADMIN   1121
R20_AMATORRADIO   0/2
R20_BEST_OF_FIDONET   13
R20_CHAT   0/893
R20_DEPP   0/3
R20_DEV   399
R20_ECHO2   1379
R20_ECHOPRES   0/35
R20_ESTAT   0/719
R20_FIDONETPROG...
...RAM.MYPOINT
  0/2
R20_FIDONETPROGRAM   0/22
R20_FIDONET   0/248
R20_FILEFIND   0/24
R20_FILEFOUND   0/22
R20_HIFI   0/3
R20_INFO2   3205
R20_INTERNET   0/12940
R20_INTRESSE   0/60
R20_INTR_KOM   0/99
R20_KANDIDAT.CHAT   42
R20_KANDIDAT   28
R20_KOM_DEV   112
R20_KONTROLL   0/13258
R20_KORSET   0/18
R20_LOKALTRAFIK   0/24
R20_MODERATOR   0/1852
R20_NC   76
R20_NET200   245
R20_NETWORK.OTH...
...ERNETS
  0/13
R20_OPERATIVSYS...
...TEM.LINUX
  0/44
R20_PROGRAMVAROR   0/1
R20_REC2NEC   534
R20_SFOSM   0/340
R20_SF   0/108
R20_SPRAK.ENGLISH   0/1
R20_SQUISH   107
R20_TEST   2
R20_WORST_OF_FIDONET   12
RAR   0/9
RA_MULTI   106
RA_UTIL   0/162
REGCON.EUR   0/2056
REGCON   0/13
SCIENCE   0/1206
SF   0/239
SHAREWARE_SUPPORT   0/5146
SHAREWRE   0/14
SIMPSONS   0/169
STATS_OLD1   0/2539.065
STATS_OLD2   0/2530
STATS_OLD3   0/2395.095
STATS_OLD4   0/1692.25
SURVIVOR   0/495
SYSOPS_CORNER   0/3
SYSOP   0/84
TAGLINES   0/112
TEAMOS2   0/4530
TECH   0/2617
TEST.444   0/105
TRAPDOOR   0/19
TREK   0/755
TUB   0/290
UFO   0/40
UNIX   0/1316
USA_EURLINK   0/102
USR_MODEMS   0/1
VATICAN   0/2740
VIETNAM_VETS   0/14
VIRUS   0/378
VIRUS_INFO   0/201
VISUAL_BASIC   0/473
WHITEHOUSE   0/5187
WIN2000   0/101
WIN32   0/30
WIN95   0/4288
WIN95_OLD1   0/70272
WINDOWS   0/1517
WWB_SYSOP   0/419
WWB_TECH   0/810
ZCC-PUBLIC   0/1
ZEC   4

 
4DOS   0/134
ABORTION   0/7
ALASKA_CHAT   0/506
ALLFIX_FILE   0/1313
ALLFIX_FILE_OLD1   0/7997
ALT_DOS   0/152
AMATEUR_RADIO   0/1039
AMIGASALE   0/14
AMIGA   0/331
AMIGA_INT   0/1
AMIGA_PROG   0/20
AMIGA_SYSOP   0/26
ANIME   0/15
ARGUS   0/924
ASCII_ART   0/340
ASIAN_LINK   0/651
ASTRONOMY   0/417
AUDIO   0/92
AUTOMOBILE_RACING   0/105
BABYLON5   0/17862
BAG   135
BATPOWER   0/361
BBBS.ENGLISH   0/382
BBSLAW   0/109
BBS_ADS   0/5290
BBS_INTERNET   0/507
BIBLE   0/3563
BINKD   0/1119
BINKLEY   0/215
BLUEWAVE   0/2173
CABLE_MODEMS   0/25
CBM   0/46
CDRECORD   0/66
CDROM   0/20
CLASSIC_COMPUTER   0/378
COMICS   0/15
CONSPRCY   0/899
COOKING   32677
COOKING_OLD1   0/24719
COOKING_OLD2   0/40862
COOKING_OLD3   0/37489
COOKING_OLD4   0/35496
COOKING_OLD5   9370
C_ECHO   0/189
C_PLUSPLUS   0/31
DIRTY_DOZEN   0/201
DOORGAMES   0/2053
DOS_INTERNET   0/196
duplikat   6002
ECHOLIST   0/18295
EC_SUPPORT   0/318
ELECTRONICS   0/359
ELEKTRONIK.GER   1534
Möte FIDONEWS_OLD1, 49742 texter
 lista första sista föregående nästa
Text 17902, 254 rader
Skriven 2005-12-05 08:03:00 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: [1/2] Sociopaths!
=========================
 >>> Part 1 of 2...

-=> Quoting Michiel Van Der Vlist to Frank Scheidt <=-

 MVDV>>> Terrorist or freedom fighter, it is all a matter of perspective.
 MVDV>>> Just as "murder" or "collateral damage". In the end it is those
 MVDV>>> who write the history books that say which is what.
 
 >> Not so.  A terrorist is one who is trying to terrorize a mass
 >> of people through his terrible actions.

 MVDV>> That is how it looks in the eyes of the enemy of his people.
 
 > But, viewed *objectively* the terrorist is an evil person
 > doing evil deeds ...

 MVDV> 100% objectivity exist only in mathematics. And even there only up to
 MVDV> a point. When it comes to "good" and "evil" there is no objectivity.

If you truly *believe* there is no objective *evil*, I really 
feel sorry for you ... [sigh] ...
 
 > I presume you object to murder

 MVDV> Of course I do. I strongly object to murder!
 
Good!

 > ... maybe I'm mistaken in that belief ...

 MVDV> Possibly because you and I seem to have different opinions when it
 MVDV> come to judge if a specific case qualifies as murder or not.

How can different opinions exist WRT murder?  OK, I know what you 
mean, the abortuaries where "murder" is a forbidden word. 

 >> A freedom fighter, OTOH, is fighting an *enemy* to achieve
 >> freedom for his people.

 MVDV>> That is how it looks in the eyes of his people.
 
 > See above, re "objectively"

 MVDV> See avbove, objectivity is a fiction.

With *you*, perhaps, but not with me.  *I* am an objective 
observer of life.

 MVDV>> All a matter of perspective.
 
 > Not really -- if the observer is *objective*.

 MVDV> There is no such thing as an objective observer.

You're "talking" with one *now*!
 
 > For example I can *easily* see the terrorists are evil incarnate ...

 MVDV> So can I.

Good!
 
 > and *I* am objective.

 MVDV> No, you are not. Nobody is.

See above ...
 
 >> There's no way one could look upon the murderers who killed
 >> three thousand innocent people that way!

 MVDV>> Of course there is a way. Just look at it from their point of view.
 
 > But that's an *insane* point-of-view.

 MVDV> In your eyes it is. In their's it probably is not.

But viewed *objectively* their opinion WRT this matter is 
worthless!
 
 > Do you support insanity?

 MVDV> That depends. I do not reject insanity per se. I do reject criminal
 MVDV> acts performed by insane people though. I also reject criminal acts by
 MVDV> sane people. 

OK ...

 >> It was done *deliberately*

 MVDV>> And the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an accident?
 
 > We were talking about *terrorists*!  Stay focussed!

 MVDV> Mow you are getting it! Indeed we were talking about terrorists.

 MVDV> Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an evil and insane
 MVDV> deed. Those who did it fit your definition of *terrorist*.

Not so!  It was an attempt to save over a million lives -- and it 
*worked*! 

 >> for no adequate reason which makes it murder.

 MVDV>> For them the reason was adequate: they wanted to teach the US a
 MVDV>> lessen. Unfortunateley it didn't take.
 
 > They were all insane.

 MVDV> Only as seen from your perspective.
 
As seen by *any* objective observer!

 > Insane men cannot teach anyone a "lesson"

 MVDV> It is the other way around. Insane man can not be taught a lesson.
 MVDV> That is why the lesson of 9/11 did not take.

I think after thousands of terrorists have been killed in 
Afghanistan and Iraq they're *starting* to learn the lesson ...
 
 >> So you are admitting the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
 >> *were* guilty!

 MVDV>> You are getting too predictable Frank, I knew you were going to say
 MVDV>> that. Now read again: "in a true democracy" I wrote. Was Japan a true
 MVDV>> democracy in 1945? Don't think so.
 
 > Now you ask me a question then answer it without letting me
 > respond ... [sigh] ...

 MVDV> How so? I just gave *my* answer to the question. Nothing stops you
 MVDV> from putting *your* answer next to it.

OK ...

 MVDV> Except of course if you have no answer....

Of course I have an answer.  It's my opinion that Japan was a 
monarchy.
 
 >> I had never looked upon it that way, considering only
 >> the military objectives of the bombing.

 MVDV>> Military objectives my foot! The obvious objective was to
 MVDV>> "teach them a lesson". To scare the shit out of them by
 MVDV>> killing as many people as possible.
 
 > The rail marshalling yards were the target ...

 MVDV> Could easely have been taken in a conventional raid. No need to kill
 MVDV> 300.000 people just to hit those targets.

Actually, as I recall, only something on the order of 200,000 
enemy were killed.

 MVDV>> It perfectly fits your definition of "terrorist".
 
 > No way!

 MVDV> You refuse to see it, but there is no way around it. The objective of
 MVDV> the bombs was to kill a *LOT* of people in order to terrorise Japan
 MVDV> into surrender. Any military targets in the area were just an excuse.

How can you say that?  Were you in the inner loop of those who 
made the decision to bomb?  I don't think so.

 MVDV> Killing a lot of people to terrorise is the mark of the terrorist.

True ... so?

 MVDV>>> 9/11 is something that the USA brought onto itself. The
 MVDV>>> people of the USA were not innocent bystanders in the
 MVDV>>> chain of events that led up to it.
 >
 >> What was the "chain of events" as you see it?

 MVDV>> For one: the unconditional support of Israel, thereby committing
 MVDV>> a grave injustice against the people of Palestine.
 
 > While I  have long opposed the support of Israel by many American
 > politicians (in fact I oppose supporting *any* foreign gummint)

 MVDV> It does not really matter, see below...
 
 > if the powers-to-be here decide to support Israel they have
 > the right to do so.

 MVDV> And you support those peowers that be. That makes you part responsible
 MVDV> for their acts.

Not so.  Do you think they ask me, "Frank, what do you think 
about our knee-jerk support of Israel?"?   Of *course* they 
don't.  If they *did* I'd say get out of the Near-East.  Let 
those barbarians fight their endless wars!
 
 > I have *long* proposed a 100% hands-off policy WRT the
 > Israel/Palestine conflict.  Let them fight it out and let
 > the best men win (grammatically the "better men")  So that was
 > no excuse for the murderers.

 MVDV> I didn't say it was an excuse. I said the attitude of unconditional
 MVDV> support for Israel is one of the things in the chain of events that led
 MVDV> up to 9/11. 

The terrorists had no way of knowing how many of the 3,000 
victims supported Israel.

 >> Merely "believing" something doesn't make it *true*!

 MVDV>> You guys should have thought of that before attacking Irak on the
 MVDV>> pretext that there were WMD's.
 
 > There was no "pretext".  Intelligence sources of *five*
 > nations had assured us there were.

 MVDV> All based on old and false information and debunked long before the
 MVDV> invasion started.
 
"Debunked" later ...

 > Since they haven't been found, obviously Saddam managed to move them.

 MVDV> Since they were not found, they obviously were not there in the first
 MVDV> place. GWB's own weapon inspectors said so.

And *suddenly* you believe them????

 MVDV>>> Throwing a weapon of mass destruction from the safety of an aircraft
 MVDV>>> at altitude and speed is not an act of heroism.
 >
 >> It was an act of heroism because they didn't know if the bomb
 >> would explode in such a way as to kill the plane's crew!

 MVDV>> There was the test of the first bomb, they had a fair idea of there
 MVDV>> chances.
 
 > "Fair idea" isn't good enough when one is facing death.

Decisions must be made during wartime.  The decision to bomb 
Hiroshima and Nagasaki was obviously a very good one!

 MVDV> There was a war going on remember. Risking their lives in war is what
 MVDV> soldiers do. The risk of the people in the plane was nothing compared
 MVDV> to those on the ground.

So in wartime you think it's essential that both sides face equal 
danger?

 >>> Continued to next message...

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
 * Origin: Try Our Web Based QWK: DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)