Text 18094, 186 rader
Skriven 2005-12-07 10:09:00 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Name-Calling
====================
-=> Quoting Michiel Van Der Vlist to Frank Scheidt <=-

 MVDV>> My family name is "van der Vlist". It is not a result of the choice of
 MVDV>> my parents. It is inhereted. Family names with "van", "van de" or "van
 MVDV>> der" are  always used in full.
 
 > OK, your customs are different than ours.  That's obvious ...

 MVDV> I am not all that sure if it really is a matter of custums. Maybe it
 MVDV> is just a matter of language after all. whatever it is, it os
 MVDV> interesting.... 

 >> *I*, for example, could immediately start using the name "Michiel
 >> van der Vlist" as my own, without even a need to "register" it.

 MVDV>> But why on earth would you do that?
 
 > I *wouldn't* but you should recall this is a nation of immigrants
 > -- citizens originally from all over the world.  Usually they
 > want to "fit in".  One way of doing that is by having a name
 > which sounds more "American" than, say,  "Wrwyskinski".

 MVDV> That makes sense.....
 
 > That's usually the reason people change their names here.

 MVDV> Over here immigrants seldom change their names. We have a lot of
 MVDV> people here with Turkish or Maroccan names.
 
 > How would an immigrant named "Michiel Van Der Vlist" likely
 > "Anglicize" *that* name here?

 MVDV> Maybe he wouldn't. I once was an immigrant. In the republic or South
 MVDV> Africa in the sevemtees. I did not change my name. But then Southh
 MVDV> Africa is a different matter. English is just one of the languages, the
 MVDV> second language was Zuid Afrikaans and there are many people with names
 MVDV> starting with "van" or "van der" in South Africa. "van der Vlist" did
 MVDV> not stand out. 

 MVDV> Many of the native English speakers had problems with pronouncing my
 MVDV> first name though. So I allowed them to pronounce it as "Michael".
 
 > Possibly "Michael List", for example.

 MVDV> Dropping the 'V'? Not likely.

I disagree.  "List" is easy to spell and pronounce while "Vlist" 
isn't.  When immigrants change their names it's almost *always* 
to a name which is both easy to pronounce and to spell.  When 
*my* family immigrated here they didn't anglicize the name 
obviously.  Many immigrants, who came through Ellis Island during 
the late Nineteenth, early Twentieth Centuries were *given* new 
names because the customs officials couldn't pronounce their 
European names.  I can't imagine that taking place today, though.
 
 > And as a *new* immigrant that would pose no special problem
 > for he'd not have a long history of activities here using
 > his original name.

 MVDV> Yes, I can see that...

 MVDV> In these time of global communication however, peole would not start
 MVDV> completely from scracth however. They have written articles, obtained
 MVDV> degrees, etc, etc.. 

True.  Things are a bit more complex than they were when many 
immigrants came over in sailing ships.

 >> Also there would be no legal problems --

 MVDV>> I am unsure about the details here. It is possible to legally change
 MVDV>> one's name, but it is a lot of hassle and expensive and it is rare. As
 MVDV>> for informal use of an alias, that too is rare. It could lead to
 MVDV>> problems as it can easely lead to a suspicion of abuse. I *think* it is
 MVDV>> ok to give a false name when signing into a hotel. But you better make
 MVDV>> *very* sure you pay the bill before you leave or you may end up on the
 MVDV>> wrong end of a charge of forgery with intent to avoid payment...
 
 > Here, too, changing one's name with the intent to use the name
 > in some illegal activity would cause additional trouble with the law.

 MVDV> If one uses an "unofficial name" one could easily run into problem
 MVDV> without having the intention to break the law.

 MVDV> If I were to spend a night in a hotel and forget to pay, there will be
 MVDV> no serious problem if I left my real name and address at the desk. The
 MVDV> hotel would simply send me a bill and if I pay within a reasonable
 MVDV> time, that's it. 

 MVDV> When I gave a false address, I may be in trouble if I walk to my car
 MVDV> to pick up a box of kleenex....

OK ... I was speaking in general terms ...

 MVDV>>> So you don't mind at all that I started this reply to you with a
 MVDV>>> "Hello Scheidt" at the top?
 
 >> Of course not.

 MVDV>> Interesting. Are you sure it is not just you that doesn't mind but
 MVDV>> that it is representative for the US as a whole.
 
 > I presume it's widespread for I know a number of people who
 > are addressed routinely by their last name.

 MVDV> I find that very odd. If it really is common, why have I *never* heard
 MVDV> it in American movies or TV series?

I have no idea ... don't misunderstand me, though, usually people 
do *not* address others by their surnames, however a *lot* of 
people do.  I can't come up with a percentage.  Maybe movies and 
TV are trying to do what *most* people do, use the first name, or 
the surname with "Mr." or the equivalent.  In any event such 
usage isn't uncommon by any means.
 
 > Even in *my* case among the many neighbors I knew as a child
 > there was one family in which the people addressed me *always*
 > using my last name only -- and they were *friends*.

 MVDV> Addressing a child with his last name is even weirder to me...

They did that for *years* well into my adulthood ... it meant 
nothing special to me ...
 
 > That usage means nothing.  Of course there might be parts of
 > the U.S. where it *isn't* done, but, in general, I think it's
 > pretty common.

 MVDV> Hmmm....

 MVDV>> In my culture it definitely is insulting. Not a "dualling to the
 MVDV>> death" insult, but an insult nevertheless.
 
 > So if someone comes here from Europe wanting to insult me for
 > some reason, then addresses me by my last name he'd be mighty
 > disappointed ... heh heh heh ...

 MVDV> The reverse is worse. Making an innocent remark that comes across as
 MVDV> an insult. When you ever come t The Netherlands, I advise against
 MVDV> addressing people by their last name *only*.

I seldom do that in any event ...
 
 >> So Germany only lost the war "somewhat"???

 MVDV>> No. Try again.
 
 > Why "No"?  In many cases there *are* only two shades.
 > Examples, pregnancy, death, virginity, etc.

 MVDV> And in many other cases there are grades. Examples: guilt, innocence,
 MVDV> winning, losing, dark, light.
 
OK ... but "winning, losing"???  OK, I suppose there are grades 
of winning or losing ...

 >>> WRT WWII one side won; one side lost.

 MVDV>>> There is that binary thinking again....
 >
 >> Good for me!

 MVDV>> So how about Poland? Did it win or lose?
 
 > The answer to that requires a specific date.

 MVDV> We were discussing WWII weren't we?
 
Yes, but WWII ran from Sept., 1939 (in Europe) to Sept., 1945.  
Each day is an individual date.

 > When Germany overran Poland, it lost.  When the Soviets
 > "liberated" Poland, it lost again.

 MVDV> Yet, Poland was part of the same coalition as the US. The US won and
 MVDV> Poland lost you say?

Yes, when the Soviets overran the country after Roosevelt "gave" 
Eastern Europe to the Soviets during, I believe, the Yalta 
conference.

... "Police Department.  To report a murder, press 1.  To report ... "

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
 * Origin: Try Our Web Based QWK: DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)