Text 20241, 160 rader
Skriven 2005-12-28 16:46:54 av Carol Shenkenberger (6:757/1)
  Kommentar till text 20120 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Re: Lack of Gratitude
=============================
*** Quoting Michiel van der Vlist from a message to Carol Shenkenberger ***

 > Frank, why do you persist in so much Europe bashing?

MvdV> Because he is a troll.

That or misguided.  All I know is he's upsetting folks more than even Roy does
with his tired old 'nazi' comments that most of now just ignore rather than
spin him up (if you didnt catch it, he sent another one of them comments to
Ward).


 > Yes the germans in WWII (along with the Italians) took over
 > much of Europe and the people were in occupied lands then.
 > They didnt like it but the average civilian didnt have that
 > many options at their disposal to do anything about it.

MvdV> I just reread my aunt's diary. She lived in Oosterbeek during the batt
MvdV> of Arnhem. In September 1944 she was right in the middle of a war zone

I'd love some excerpts from that if you would be willing? I beleive you've made
reference to starving folks, possibly eating tulip bulbs to stay alive?

God has graced my life in that I've never been in any real hardship.

 > happen anyplace as some people are just that way and will
 > take any opportunity they can to get ahead,

MvdV> Conditions during the winter of 1944 were very bad. People were starvi
MvdV> They walked 20 km to get three or four patatoes.

That seems hard though as they'd expend more energy than the potatoes would
give them unless they were really big ones.


 > even if it is at the expense of others. Dont act like it was
 > most of them though as it wasnt.

MvdV> Of course it wasn't.

 > It was just people, trying to get by til it was over.

MvdV> Indeed, And who is he to judge? He never lived in an occupied country
MvdV> where there was no food, no heating, no nothing. Not every one is a he

Well, that is true.  Not that all Americans are that way, but the ones who have
experience in such are almost all 1st generation ones.  We do however have a
big problem with 'homeless'. They might have a feeling about such things but
we cant reach them via Fidonet to ask, and Frank has never been that.


 > Now, so long after, it is over.  It's a generation past it.
 > I'm not saying it should be forgotten,

MvdV> No, it should not be forgotten. But it is time we started treating it
MvdV> for what it is: history. I am sick and tired of being held responsible
MvdV> for what happened before I was born. Nothing that I can say or do will
MvdV> change history. I really have my belly full of this "you should be gra
MvdV> we saved your ass from Hitler" crap. To the best of my knowledge it is
MvdV> even true, but even if it were, I just don't want to hear it any more.

I hear you and agree.  I see no reason why you should feel 'grateful' to me
because my father fought in the battle of the bulge (Born of german parents on
Parris Island just after crossing, fluent german, radio operator who
translated what the germans were saying for the US troops).  Why should you? 
He was just one of many people who were doing as they were told, and as he
thought best.

The only time he mentioned it to me was to say 'I was a small cog in a big
machine and pretty much did what I was told'.  He also said he was greatful to
get out alive.  Because my Mom left him when I was 2, I barely knew him and I
have not that much to say on how much he might have told me, had i grown up
with him.  My sister who went to live with him when she was 15, said it was
not mentioned much other than he refused to have a gun in his house and once
tossed out a boyfriend of her's because he wanted to take her hunting.

He had a ribbon for a sharpshooter.

MvdV> I have had enough of it. It happened before I was born, it is history.

MvdV> The Germans are no longer our enemy, they are now our neighbours and f
MvdV> We have to move on. This constant digging in the past stands in the wa
MvdV> of the future.

Exactly.  It's over.  While I would be curious to know what my father
enountered, it is too late.  (Rest in Peace Dad, 2001).  If I were to
speculate, he was horrified at the idea that he may shoot a close relative as
he was a very recent immigrant and there were many over there. On my father's
side i am 2nd generation American.  The family fled the Kaiser but most of
them stayed in Germany.  WWI has more relevance to me as I have some stories
from the family on that.

Grin, I am learning to make 'granny squares' so I can make blankets like I had
as a child, made by my mother's uncle who got mustard gassed and lost use of
one lung so took to knitting as he wasnt able to do more active stuff.  My
grandfather on Mom's side didnt see any action, being stateside support (flat
feet or something like that, did what he could).

This type of rememberance enchances us all, but the blame is out of place this
long ago later.

BTW, if any can claim any 'Nazi' ancestors, I definatley can.  No joke.  The
side that stayed in Germany?  Some were.  Look up 'Von Papen'.  Great uncle. 
Quite a few others as well.  It's very possible the blood that runs though my
veins is related to the blood of some of the ones who worked in the infamous
camps via uncles and aunts and such of my father.  When the grandparents came
over to the USA, they 'Americanized' the name to 'Pape' (common german-french
border name) because the infamous uncle was a problem in WWI.

The most interesting angle to this was when my brother and I got jobs with the
government.  Took a very LONG time to get our clearances. See, they took all
the records (freely given, had little) and had to track the relatives we had
who were then all living pretty much on the other side of the 'wall'. The only
thing we were told back was 'it was interesting, and obviously no contact' and
a small bit of family tree as well as an inheritance of some 2,000$ each for
the hotel that was used by Hitler at one stage and is now a supermarket
(bulding demolished long ago).


 > but it's hardly something I'd expect strong feelings about
 > from those born in 1960 and later and those folks now have
 > often grown kids (1960-1965 at least) and grand kids on the way.

MvdV> Not only should we not expect strong feelings, we should not encourage
MvdV> those feelings. We should not burden the next generation with the atro
MvdV> of the past. They have their own future to make.

Correct.  Charlotte knows a bit of this history, as far as it goes but as you
can tell, there is no 'angst' passed on with it.

FS>> actually did little in liberating them ... that's because they
FS>> have received misinformation from their guilt-ridden parents and
FS>> grandparents.  And it's of little avail trying to *teach* them.
FS>> After all, whom would *you* believe -- your parents/grandparents
FS>> or some stranger from overseas??

 > I'd believe my parents and grandparents, especially if the
 > stranger from overseas was bashing my land and people.

MvdV> Of course. And it is not just my parents and grand parents, it is also
MvdV> the historians here that tell us a story different from that what Fran
MvdV> and others from across tell us.

Frank seems to be fogetting some aspects, like omitting the Canadians. My own
knowledge of history is not that good.  Fact is 'history' is a lighter subject
I think in USA schools?  They spend a huge amount of the day on sciences and
maths and not much on history in comparison.  Lots of folks get into it though
and i've been enjoying some web pages lately about the parts that interest me
(ancient egypt mostly).

MvdV> The more they demand gratitude, the less they will get.

MvdV> You Carol are wise to generally avoid these discussions.

Hehe well, I generally do.  But, even I can see Frank's bashings and have to
speak up.
                                       xxcarol

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