Text 20841, 159 rader
Skriven 2006-01-03 23:48:38 av Peter Knapper (3:772/1.0)
  Kommentar till text 20823 av Frank Scheidt (1:123/140)
Ärende: [1/2] Lack of Gratitude
===============================
Hi Frank,

 PK> Oh the concepts really are there, and others see them too, but it
 PK> appears that you have 2 ways of viewing the same action. If it is  
 PK> being done BY the USA, then the USA is saving the world, however 
 PK> if the same thing is being done TO the USA, then its being done 
 PK> by terrorists. 

 FS> But they're *not* "the same action".  The US is defending itself 
 FS> -- and the rest of the civilized world.  

 PK> The USA is defending itself by "attacking" a supposed enemy, EXACTLY
 PK> the same as the "Terrorists" are defending thjemselves by attacking  PK>
the USA. 

 FS> A "supposed" enemy?  Don't you consider the murderous 
 FS> "insurgents" in Iraq to be a real enemy?  

The USA have been supposedly attacking El Queda, and the USA says that El Queda
was "aided" by Iraq. I can certainly see the relevance to El Queda, but the
EXACT tie in with Iraq and the Weapons of Mass Destruction is tenuous at best.
Then one must also ask how this ties in directly with the USA, and again, one
struggles to find the basis for this. Its like GWB assembled rumor upon rumor
to build a loose case for "thats where we need to hit", and then struggles to
explain why NONE of their predictions have stood the test of providing any
genuine evidence. Are you not concerned that absolutely NONE of the claims
about Iraq have shown even the slightest piece of validity to them? 



 PK> And consider that no part of the "civilised world" requested this
 PK> action from the USA, so dont try and drag the rest of us into your
 PK> actions. 

 FS> But it's in your own interest that we *act* by trying to save the 
 FS> world from the terrorists ...

So are you suggesting that the rest of the world should submit to Uncle Sam 
determining what is right and wrong for the rest of the world? Surely the
"results" from Iraq are enough to show that almost no-one has any trust in what
the USA says any more, GWB has destroyed USA credibilty...


 PK> So are you now suggesting that the USA didnt really know what they
 PK> were getting into? That doesn't sound like a logical thinker to me...
 FS>  
 FS> Whom are you accusing of being illogical, me or the US leadership?

 PK> I would have expected any logical thinker to userstand the phrase
 PK> "that the USA didn't..." means exactly that, the USA government, and
 PK> not yourself. 

 FS> I am part of the US.  I voted for the gummint now in power.

I am not sure how you want me to read that reply, either its a non-reply to the
original question, or its an admission that you are not a logical thinker.
Either is not good...


 PK> The method chosen to deliver the weapon has nothing to do with the
 PK> result of that delivery, the effect was the same, 
 PK> even if the scale was quite different. 
 FS>  
 FS> But you are comparing them to the suicide/bombing terrorists!

 PK> I was comparig one attack with another... that is all.

 FS> Nevertheless the implication was clearly there ...

That I was comparing one attack wth another, REGARDLESS of how one classifies
those involved.


 PK> They can't be "wars" if they were undeclared...
 FS>  
 FS> The term war here is used in the same common way as in LBJ's "War 
 FS> on Poverty" or Ford's "War on Inflation" simply meaning an 
 FS> extraordinarily vigorous action -- but not a real *war*.

If there was no declaration of war, then thats sounds remarkedly similar to a
Terrorist attack to me...


 PK> What peacetime? Your "terrorists" had already called their actions a
 PK> "Holly war" against the USA. That sounds like a declaration to me...

 FS> Huh?  There *is* no such thing as a "holy war".  That's pure 
 FS> nonsense! 

Its not nonsense to those that declared it!


 PK> But you are still very much in denial regarding the previous actions
 PK> by the USA as being a cause for 911. To be able to understand that you
 PK> have to look at the actions from the perspective of the "other side".
 
 FS> *Nothing* the US has done justified the murders of 3,000 
 FS> innocent people -- especially during peacetime!
  
 FS> Hence you should reassess your thinking. 

 PK> Pot... kettle...
  
 FS> You're mumbling again ... [sigh] ...

Damn, I must be catching that from you........;-)


 FS> There was no fanaticism whatsoever in the bombing of Hiroshima -- 
 FS> merely a desire to save a million lives ...

 PK> By killing thousands of people. So where is the 
 PK> dfference with the WTC attack?  

 FS> I'll explain it again, in very simple terms.  Please pay 
 FS> attention this time.

 FS> Hiroshima bombing:  Wartime ... done to save a million lives
 FS> WTC bombing:  Peacetime ... done out of insane (fanatic) 
 FS> viciousness by murderers ...

 FS> See the difference now?

Nope, in BOTH situations, War had been declared. See the similarity now Frank?


 PK> What peacetime? A "Holy war" had already been declared, several times
 PK> over... 

 FS> There *is* no such thing as a "holy war".

Your statement is simply a denial of the fact that a "Holy War" was declared.
Do you not remember it being broadcast all over the world by American TV
stations?



 PK> Until you can acknowledge all these events and look at them from a
 PK> balanced perspective, you will simply be uable to rationalise the USA
 PK> actions that you are attemping to rationalise. The very first part of
 PK> that task is to acknowledge that others have a right to live their
 PK> lives they way they wish to live them, without anyone (including the
 PK> USA) trying to impose their will on them.

 FS> I don't think it's that simple.  What happened is this:  Those 
 FS> people *attacked* us!  We are now defending ourselves ...

By invading other countries while using a different reason as justification for
the US actions.

The bottom line is that there must be 2 "sides" to any conflict. Now that you
have stated the USA "side" to this many times over, then what does the USA
consider to be the "other side" of this conflict? 

Cheers............pk.


--- Maximus/2 3.01
 * Origin: === Maxie BBS.  Ak, NZ +64 9 444-0989 === (3:772/1)