Text 26081, 173 rader
Skriven 2006-03-03 11:35:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 26069 av Roy Witt (1:1/22)
Ärende: Elist
=============
 >>> Well, it is his list. He decides what can be listed and what
 >>> can't be listed. He decides how it is to be formatted, etc ...

 MvdV>> And that is exactly the problem.

 > I see no problem with that.

I do. I have serious problems with dictators.

 MvdV>> He is a dictator accountable to no one. And that doesn't just
 MvdV>> apply to Thom's list, it applied to many other lists that we
 MvdV>> had in the past as well.

 > Your opinion. It apparently isn't the opinion of the moderators
 > who use Thom's list.

That is not apparent at all since the moderators did not have a free choice.

 MvdV>> If there are no checks and balances and something is run
 MvdV>> by a dictator, sooner or later there will be abuse.

 > That can also hold true with something that has checks and
 > balances, like Fidonet policy

Without checks and balances and a dictoator running the thing abuse is
guatanteed. With checks and balances it is just a possibility.

 >>> example: at one time, in retaliation for your attempt to hi-jack
 >>> the HAM echo, I presented the elist with entrys for your echoes,
 >>> the ones you moderate in The Netherlands

 >>> Because Thom reviews each listing before it gets to the robot,
 >>> your echoes were safe from being hijacked.

 MvdV>> There were never in danger of being hijacked.

 > No so.

Yes so.

 MvdV>> Had your attempt to have yourself listed in Thom's list
 MvdV>> succeeded, there would have been zero consequences. Everyone
 MvdV>> here knows I am the moderator, no one would have recognised
 MvdV>> you as moderator no matter what Thom's list says.

Plus of course that my echos are not distributed in Z1 and most likely never
will be. Th Z1 elist gang has no power over it.

 >>>>> because Ward Dossche failed to do so.

 MvdV>>>> There was no "failure" as there is no obligation for a moderator
 MvdV>>>> to take steps to get his echo listed in whatever e-list.

 > Ahh, but there was a failure. He knew that Adrian would be
 > merging his echolist with the Z2 list. He though his echo
 > would be perfectly safe there, in that situation.

Are you a mind reader now?

 > Had he used Adrian's list, Moravsik wouldn't have had the
 > opportunity, period.

Had you not had this idiotic system of whoever files a submission for the
e-list hets listed as moderator, it would not have happened either.

 >>> Ward announced the echo's existance in Fidonews, January, 1998.

 MvdV>> Thereby letting the world know he was the creator and
 MvdV>> therefore the moderator.

 > Only per ZC echopol...that doesn't/didn't mean squat here.

Even in Z1 it is normal that whoever creates an echo gets to be the first
moderator.

 >>> He listed the echo in the Z2 echolist...it may not have been required,

 MvdV>> It is not required. Period.

 > Maybe, maybe it was.

It is not required. Period.

 MvdV>> Perhaps. OTOH, the problem may never have been arisen in the first
 MvdV>> place, had it not been a high profile person.

 > Nor would it have occured, had the echo's originator been made
 > aware of what could happen if he didn't list in in Z1.

Nor would it have occured had you not had this Taliban system of de facto
compulsory e-listing.

In retrospect I'd say Ward's error was in allowing the echo to be distributed
in Z1. Had he kept it restricted to Z2, none of this would have happened and we
in Z2 would still have the echo and could have used its for the purpose it was
intended.

I learned from that mistake. My echos are not distributed in Z1 and if I ever
decide to make an exception, it will be on a strictly private basis.

 MvdV>>>> That does not change the fact that the e-list was abused.

 >>> You'd have to talk to Adrian Walker about that. Knowing his
 >>> political ties, I'd say it had a lot to do with Fidonet
 >>> politics than anything else.

 MvdV>> I have no desire to talk to Afriam Walker. It is water
 MvdV>> under the bridge.

 > You'd have a hard time finding him anyway, he left Fidonet in 1998.

I am aware that he left.

 >>> It's not the fault of an elist keeper if moderators don't keep
 >>> their listings current.

 MvdV>> It is the job of the echolist keeper to keep the list as accurate
 MvdV>> as he can.

 > He can only keep it as accurate as the moderators who list
 > their echoes with his list.

But that is not what he does. If a moderator chooses not to submit a listing,
the right thong to do would be to NOT have the echo listed if the correct
information is not available by other meands. Instead it is listed with
/someone else/ as moderator.

 MvdV>> It has to reflect reality, not create it.

 > It can only reflect what the moderators list there.

Then why does it not just list nothing if the moderator declines to supply the
information?

 >>> Once the tag is dropped from the elist, it's free to be
 >>> used by anyone who so desires.

 MvdV>> And that is the flaw. It should not be possible to hijack an echo
 MvdV>> by hijacking the tag.

 > I'm waiting for your suggestion in how to fix that problem.

Dump the e-list.

 >>> That rule keeps moderators on their toes,

 MvdV>> In Z2 we have an echomail policy to take care of that.

 > I know. I've read it and it suckes.

Your opinion. For me it has been a uselfull tool to help deal with problems.

 > It's no different than the echomail policy that Souvestre proposed
 > for Z1, 15 years ago.

Possibly not as the echomail policy we use here was originally written in and
for Z1.

 MvdV>> In Z1 an e-list keeper that isn't even part of FidoNet has no
 MvdV>> bussines chasing moderators with a stick and a carrot.

 > His list is there for everyone who wants to use it, not for
 > everyone who needs to be chased down to use it. It's a voluntary
 > list, not a mandated  Fidonet policy.

As long as the Z1 backbone required echos to be listed in order to have them
carried, it was not voluntary.


Cheers, Michiel

--- Buy Danish
 * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)