Text 36920, 117 rader
Skriven 2006-08-18 16:46:00 av LEE LOFASO (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av BOB ACKLEY
Ärende: (1/2) CELEBRATION!
==========================
Hello Bob,

>HN>Sure it might have saved many allied troops when they had
>HN>to invade Japan, but that cannot be an argument for
>HN>celebrating the nukes in WWII.

>BK>While there is no reason to celebrate the deaths of so many, it
>BK>probably saved a lot of Japanese troops and civilians also.

>LL>Face it, Bob.  Harry S Truman was a mass murderer.  The Japanese
>LL>high command had offered to surrender a full month *before* the
>LL>atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

>BA>Actually, the Japanese government had asked Stalin to intercede with
>BA>the all to open negotiations to end the war.  Stalin did *not* pass
>BA>the information along to the US and Britain.  Since our codebreakers
>BA>did not get around to decrypt and translating the relevant
>BA>diplomatic message traffic until about nine months *after* Japan had
>BA>surrendered, Truman didn't know about the offer when he ordered the
>BA>bombs used.

>LL>I do not buy the argument that Truman did not know about the Japanese
>LL>offer of a conditional surrender.  Sounds like a whitewash, more than
>LL>anything else.

BA>Then please explain how Truman was able to find out about something that
BA>the intelligence people didn't know until almost nine months after the war
BA>had ended.

Executive privilege.  :)

>LL>Especially since the information about the
>LL>conditional surrender having been declassified long after the war
>LL>ended.

BA>I first read about it in David Kahn's "The Codebreakers."  That came out
BA>in 1967.

Twenty-two years after the war ended.  And even then, not complete.
After all, why would the Japanese want to offer a conditional surrender
in secret?  That makes absolutely no sense.

>LL>Furthermore, the Japanese and the Russians have never been the
>LL>very best of friends, especially since Russia continues to occupy the
>LL>Kirile Islands.

>LL>Now please explain your logic (if
>LL>there is any) as to how those atomic bombings "probably saved a lot
>LL>of Japanese troops and civilians also." After all, hundreds of
>LL>thousands of innocent men, women and children died as a result.
>LL>And many more died later, in great pain, from radiation poisoning.

>BA>LeMay's firebombing campaign against Japanese cities killed more
>BA>Japanese than both of the nukes combined - burned, baked or boiled
>BA>them (his terms).

>LL>All the more reason NOT to atomize Japanese population centers.

>BA>Insofar as the saving of Japanese lives is concerned, it was believed
>BA>at the time that the Japanese people would resist invasion to the
>BA>death (on Saipan hundr of Japanese civilians jumped off cliffs to
>BA>their deaths rather than surrender t the American troops; on Attu,
>BA>when the Japanese troops ran out of ammunition the made a banzai
>BA>charge against the American forces armed only with rocks and
>BA>bayonets, the same thing happened on Guadalcanal).  The Japanese use
>BA>of suic charges was not limited to the Army, the naval SHO-1 plan
>BA>for the Philippine and the sending of the battleship Yamato and a
>BA>few escorts on a one way trip to Okinawa (she didn't even get close)
>BA>being two examples and the concept of using minimally trained pilots
>BA>to fly aircraft into enemy ships (kamikazes) being another.  In
>BA>point of fact civilians in Japan were at least minimally trained in
>BA>the use of pikes and lances against invaders. Given the observed
>BA>behavior our forces assumed - correctly IMO - that a ground invasion
>BA>of the Japanese home islands would ha resulted in a bloodbath
>BA>unprecedented in scale, and consisting mostly, of course, of
>BA>Japanese, although the planners assumed there would also be hundreds
>BA>of thousands of American casualties.

>LL>There would have been no bloodbath had Japan been allowed to surrender
>LL>before the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

BA>That's true.

Which begs the question - why did Truman order the atomic bombing of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

>LL>American propaganda had many Americans *believing* that the Japanese
>LL>would fight to the last man, woman and child, as well as continue to
>LL>fight anywhere and everywhere throughout the Pacific.  But the
>LL>reality was much different.

BA>It was?  Events on Guadalcanal, Saipan and Attu are documented facts.

All those events were *before* the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki.  The Japanese were defeated on Guadalcanal long before atomic
bombs were used.  The Japanese were defeated on Saipan and Attu long
before atomic bombs were used.  The Japanese were defeated at Okinawa
before atomic bombs were used.  The Japanese had no navy to speak of,
no army to speak of, no defense to speak of, at the time atomic bombs
were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

BA>Up in the 1970s there would be occasional news stories about Japanese
BA>troops being found on some godforsaken island, still fighting a war
BA>that had been over for thir years.

Isolated events, in places where Japanese soldiers did not know the
war was over.  A few months ago there was a rumor about a Japanese
soldier living in the jungle in the Philippines.  Japanese officials
investigated the rumor, hoping it was true.  However, it turned out
to be just a rumor, with no substance in fact.

--Lee


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