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Text 39772, 202 rader
Skriven 2006-09-24 14:06:27 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 39737 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555.1)
Ärende: terrorism
=================
Hello Michiel.

24 Sep 06 16:37, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff.

 MV> 23 Sep 06 01:23, you wrote to me:

 JS>>>>      No. An effective moderator would only have to resort to a
 JS>>>> feed cut as a last resort.

 MV>>> Of course. In the ideal case a good moderator will never have to
 MV>>> use it. This not being an ideal world howver...

 JS>>      It wasn't an ideal world then either.

 MV> So we needed the weapon on occasion. If not to fire it, then to wave
 MV> it. But today, waving the weapon is no good, the user knows it is just
 MV> a stage prop..

 JS>> I don't claim any special abilities as a moderator.

 MV> By implication you do. You claim to be able to do the job that Björn
 MV> can not.


     I offer observations of the current condition of the echo and also
offer suggestions based on personal experience to help improve that same
current echo condition. Any yes I offer opinions of possible causes of
problems within the echo.
 JS>> But I was able to avoid feed cut requests through communication.

 MV> Only because you had the weapon as a backup and the user knew it.


     But I didn't need to use the weapon or even use the threat of the
use of the weapon.

 MV>>> all those years I had to apply the weapon of the feed cut
 MV>>> against no more that three participants. And none of thoss cuts
 MV>>> were permanent.

 JS>>      At one point I moderated about a half dozen echos. Mostly
 JS>> software and OS related and they were pretty well behaved echos.

 MV> I moderated other echos as well but the R28 national points ech was
 MV> the most time consuming and the most difficult. Especially in the time
 MV> of the CSO wars where the region was effectively cut in half echomail
 MV> wise and points.028 was the only non topic bound unrestricted echo
 MV> that crossed the "iron echomail curtain"

 JS>> While I never had to resort to a feed cut I did require a number
 JS>> of people to "Go somewhere else for abit" from time to time.

 MV> Ah, so you *did* have to use the weapon. You *did* ban participants
 MV> from the echo. That you did not really have to call the assistence of
 MV> a hub to have it enforced make no real difference, you used the
 MV> weapon....


     The weapon (Requesting an echo feed be severed) was never nessesary.

     Requesting that someone take a time out from the echo was on occasion
nessesary. Which they did agree to do.


 JS>>>>  Something that Björn as moderator has shown me no sign of.

 MV>>> As I said, you ask for the impossible. The harsh reality is that
 MV>>> a moderator has become a paper tiger that is powerless against
 MV>>> an uncooperative participant. And it did not start with Björn.
 MV>>> Ask Joe Delahaye about the time he was moderator of FN_SYSOP.
 MV>>> That was how long ago? Five, six years? Even then it was
 MV>>> impossible to "effectively" moderate it.

 JS>>      The task is not impossible. It just depends on ones level of
 JS>> determination.

 MV> I say it is impossible. I have not seen any moderator of an interzonal
 MV> non topic bound echo to effectively deal with uncooperative
 MV> partcipants. When Joe Delahaye was moderator of FN_SYSOP he failed to
 MV> control Roy. He tried to expell him, but was unable to. When Roy
 MV> became moderator of FN_SYSOP he tried to expell Ward but failed.

 MV> When Roy had his nodenumber removed from the nodelist, Björn asked
 MV> that he refrained from posting in FN_SYSOP. For the FidoNews echo he
 MV> asked that Roy stpped posting from unlisted node numbers and that mail
 MV> movers would stop feeding the unlisted numbers Roy was using. Het got
 MV> ZERO cooperation. Everyone who fed Roy just kept on doing so.


     Looks like you have clearly demonstrated that people had little or
respect or acceptance for Björn as the moderator. Had they some respect
I think the outcome would have been differant.


 MV> Need I go on? read my lips: it is impossibkle to get a feed cut these
 MV> days and therefore it is impossible to moderate an unwilling
 MV> participant. If they are unwilling to moderate themsekves, there is
 MV> nothing the moderator can do.

     Thats my point, an effective moderator usually makes the need for a
forced feed cut unnessesary.

 JS>> I am not minimizing what you are say Michiel. I agree that
 JS>> moderating today's echos is differant than it was years back. But
 JS>> I think that the task can still be done.

 MV> Then you must be superman. Every one else who tried in the last five
 MV> years has failed.


     <g> Trust me, FAR from it. I just try to look at things with failure
as not being an option.


 MV>>> Not really. I was asked to cooperate in starving an obnoxious
 MV>>> participant by not responding to him.

 JS>>      Makes sense.

 MV> Sure does. Problem is that it has little or no effect if not everyone
 MV> complies with the request. And obviously there are some that do not.

 MV>>>>> Have you seen me responding to any message from Frank Scheidt
 MV>>>>> recently?

 JS>>>>      You mean it wasn't you using some common sense?

 MV>>> No. I had already decided to no longer respond to him and he was
 MV>>> already in my twitt filter when the request from the moderator
 MV>>> reached me.

 MV>>> My point is that there are things going on that you do not see.

 JS>>      Oh, I am sure that there is. As I have said to Björn is
 JS>> netmail I don't doubt that Björn has sent out moderating
 JS>> netmails. My point to him and to you is that his actions and
 JS>> level of activity as moderator are having little if any visible
 JS>> effect on the condition of the Fidonews echo.

 MV> Granted.

 JS>>  That IMHO is based on two possible reasons. First is that those
 JS>> that are disrupting the echo have little or no respect for Björn
 JS>> as the moderator.

 MV> So much is obvious. Remember that respect is a two way street. How can
 MV> one respect a partcipants that wishes me dead? How can one ever reach
 MV> a situation of mutualrespect under those conditions?

 JS>> Respect is something that the moderator must earn.

 MV> This particular moderator was never given a chance from day one. Keep
 MV> in  ind that he is also elected moderator of FN_SYSOP. Those that did
 MV> not vote for him have never been able to accept that.

 JS>> Secondly is that moderator *appears* to have given up. Something
 JS>> that people in an echo are quick to pickup on. It is like waving
 JS>> a sign that says "I DON'T @#$%ING CARE!! HAVE AT IT!!".

 MV> Jeff, I do not know how old you are, but I can tell you that when you
 MV> reach a certain age, there comes a point that you realise that the
 MV> most precious commodity in life is time. It is finite and irreplacable
 MV> and so you do not want to waste it any more on absolutely useless
 MV> things like trying to talk some sense into people like Roy, Frank or
 MV> Dan.


     I'm currenty 51 and holding. <g> To me time is a variable. I may live
to be a hundred or I may die tomorrow. That is assuming that I don't do
something stupid any time soon.


 MV> If that is perceived as "giving up", so be it.


     If the situation with Björn was a matter of him realizing that there
are more important things than dealing with people who don't give a
diddly-squat. Then I could totally understand that. Life, family, work,
Etc are far more important. But if that was the case I would hope that
Björn would also realize that to just let the echo fall into disrepair
is doing the echo and the participants that still care a great disservice.
Again if this was the case it would only seem right that Björn help find
someone to take over as moderator. There is nothing wrong or bad about
saying " Alright, this is enough.I now have more important things to do".
The bad part would be if Björn were to say that but also say that "I don't
care to be moderatorany longer. But I won't let anyone else have a chance
either".


 MV> Cheers,

 MV> Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED/W32 3.0.1
 MV>  * Origin: Michiel's laptop, on the move somewhere.... (2:280/5555.1)

Jeff

--- FMail/Win32 1.60
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - MN USA (1:14/0)