Text 40193, 185 rader
Skriven 2006-09-28 21:45:08 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 40178 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: terrorism
=================
Hello Michiel.

28 Sep 06 19:52, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff.

 MV> 27 Sep 06 21:42, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> Jeff, you are starting to sound like a broken record. You try to
 MV>>> convey the attitude of a reasonable man with a balanced view
 MV>>> that takes all aspects in consideration,

 JS>>      I try to be. Wish I succeded more often though.

 MV> You succeed in /sounding/ reasonable.


     Well, that's at least a start in the right direction.


 MV>>> but in reality

 JS>>      Now how did I KNOW that you were going to say "BUT"?

 MV> Didn't take a crystal ball did it?


     Maybe but just a wee little one. <g>


 MV>>> you don't listen and totally ignore anything that does not lead
 MV>>> straight to the conclusion: replace Björn.

 JS>>      On the contrary if you read back you will notice that I also
 JS>> said that I would prefer Björn being the moderator.

 MV> /If/ he would effectively moderate. "Effectively" of course being
 MV> defined by you. Since that condition can not be met without you what
 MV> is really at the heart of the problem, which you will not, what it
 MV> boils down is that you want Björn replaced.

 MV>>> You may deny it but what you say is exactly what a supporter of
 MV>>> that hard core of Z1 participants who can not accept that things
 MV>>> are now done the Z2 way would say if he wanted to avoid saying
 MV>>> that aloud but nevertheless wanted the result to be that things
 MV>>> were run the Z1 way again.

 JS>>      Zone 1, zone 2, why should it matter?

 MV> Because it *does* matter, that is why. Zonal differences *are* a
 MV> factor whether you want them to be or not.


    Zonal differences are a factor just as long as we allow them to be.
Don't you agree that it would be better if people were NOT set apart and
divided by the zonal seperation that exists today? I know zones will not
go away but that doesn't mean that we HAVE to keep letting them divide
us any more than is absolutely nessesary.


    I think you are of the mindset that we have been separate, separate
is all that seems to have ever been, separate is normal, separate is the
only way that things can work. Thoughts and ideas from people outside
are not to be trusted. Their way is wrong, their way can't work. I make
absolutely no claim to any special wisdom. All I am saying Michiel is that
zonal differences are the current condition. That doesn't make them nessesary
or even good. Let's work to make them go away.


 JS>> If Björn's zone 2 way of moderating this echo worked. That would
 JS>> be fine with me and you wouldn't be hearing any complaints from
 JS>> me on the issue.

 MV> But as it doesn't work the way you want it to work, it is obviously
 MV> not fine.


     No it doesn't work. That is obvious to anyone that is willing to
allow themselves to see things as they really are.

 JS>> The problem is that the current way doesn't look to be working. A
 JS>> simple look at the current condition of the echo makes that
 JS>> obvious. I tried to offer suggestions based on what had worked
 JS>> for me as a moderator. They were rejected outright soley because
 JS>> they came from someone in zone 1.

 MV> No, they were rejected because it would mean dropping the Z2 way of
 MV> moderating and thereby giving in to what the hard core who can not
 MV> accpet.. etc, etc.

     I don't want to misunderstand you here. Are you saying that suggestions
were rejected because it would mean the dropping of a way of doing things
that is not working anyway? What is more important, the welfare of both the
Fidonews and the echo or appearing to be giving in to some small perceived
group of troublemmakers? Why give them that much control? Why allow them
to dictate how things will be? The solution it would seem would be for the
current moderator to actively work to gain control of the echo and still
do it in a zone 2 manner. To me there isn't a Z1 or a Z2 way of doing things.
It should be whatever way works the best. The lesser-prefered alternative is
to find a moderator that is both willing and capable of doing the job. It
shouldn't matter what zone (s)he would be from. All that should matter is
that the job gets done.


 MV> Your ideas were not rejected because you are from zone 1, but because
 MV> they are just another way of getting done what the Z1 echomail
 MV> terrorists want. Which is not what we want.

 MV>>> Don't like the Z2 way this is handled? Very well, then follow
 MV>>> the Z1 way of dealing with an echo that you think is badly
 MV>>> moderated: leave and start your own.

 JS>>      And what would that solve?

 MV> It would give you the kind of echo that you want without taking from
 MV> us what we want.


     More segregation Michiel. That is NOT a step toward a solution but
yet another step toward the end of Fidonews and Fidonet.

 JS>> It would serve no purpose other than to segregate Fidonet more
 JS>> than it already is.

 MV> FidoNet already is hopelessly segregated. I have given up all hope of
 MV> ever mending the differences between Z1 and Z2. The hostilities, the
 MV> insults and the arrogance, it has been going on too intense and for
 MV> too long now. There is a saying "to be unknown is to unloved", but
 MV> unfortunately the converse does not always hold. To get to know each
 MV> other better does not always lead to people becoming friends.


     Then let those that haven't given up and still have the desire to mend
the differences a chance. Why work, fight, and argue to make things worse
and further segregate? I can understand frustration and despair. The world
is full of it as I am sure that we both know. What I have a hard time
understanding is to let that frustration and despair that you feel make you
want to keep the differenses between us.

     No, getting to know each other better doesn't guarentee friendship. Never
has so far at least.  But getting to know each other better does help us
understand each other better. Better understand our differences and hopefully
how to better understand how to minimize them. Better communication and
understanding is probably the most important thing we can do.


 MV> If this were a marriage I would file for divorce now on the grounds of
 MV> unmendable incompatibilities.


     If this were a marriage my daughter would be looking at me funny. <g>


 MV>>> There is nothing that says discussing the content of the
 MV>>> Fidonews publication is limited to this echo. So if you wish to
 MV>>> discuss FideNews without Björn as moderator, start your own echo
 MV>>> and do it your way. Good luck.

 JS>>      The echo for that already exists and should be done here.

 MV> Your opinion to which you are entitled. It is not going to happen.


     If we can get enough people to accept those differences that we cannot
change an work to change those that we can.  We can make it happen.

 MV>>> As far as I am concerned everything has been said on the
 MV>>> subject.

 JS>> While I would tend to agree with you I doubt that will be the
 JS>> case.

 MV> Probably not....

 MV> Cheers,

 MV> Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20060315
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Jeff

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