Text 40237, 237 rader
Skriven 2006-09-29 22:22:42 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 40217 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: terrorism
=================
Hello Michiel.

30 Sep 06 00:02, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff!

 MV> On Thursday September 28 2006 21:45, you wrote to me:

 MV>>>>> Jeff, you are starting to sound like a broken record. You try
 MV>>>>> to convey the attitude of a reasonable man with a balanced
 MV>>>>> view that takes all aspects in consideration,

 JS>>>>      I try to be. Wish I succeded more often though.

 MV>>> You succeed in /sounding/ reasonable.

 JS>>      Well, that's at least a start in the right direction.

 MV> Not really. Sounding reasonable is just going off at a tangent, it
 MV> bring you neither closer, nor farther away from /being/ reasonable.


     I'm not that complicated Michiel. If you choose to accept me for who
and what I am then fine. If you can't because it might in your mind mean
that you are in some small way giving in to something. Well... I guess that
is unfortunate then. Deny if you wish or must Michiel.


 JS>>>>      Zone 1, zone 2, why should it matter?

 MV>>> Because it *does* matter, that is why. Zonal differences *are* a
 MV>>> factor whether you want them to be or not.

 JS>> Zonal differences are a factor just as long as we allow them to
 JS>> be.

 MV> Wishing it to go away is not going to make it go away.


     True, ONLY if you choose to do nothing about it.


 JS>> Don't you agree that it would be better if people were NOT set
 JS>> apart and divided by the zonal seperation that exists today?

 MV> It does not matter if I agree or not any more than if I agree that it
 MV> would be better if pi would be equal to 3.0 instead of 3.12415.. It
 MV> just isn't so.


     If it doesn't matter to you then why complain and deny as you have
been doing? Why insist on doing things in a way that has been proven not
to work? Why reject honest offers of ideas and suggestions based on where
they come from?


 JS>> I know zones will not go away but that doesn't mean that we HAVE
 JS>> to keep letting them divide us any more than is absolutely
 JS>> nessesary.

 MV> Jeff, I have heard that before. "Let us unite". Let us join forces.
 MV> Etc, etc, It is always a euphemism for 'do it my way'.

     Only if YOU can't or YOU refuse to accept anything else. I say lets
do it the way it works best. Regradless of who or where that way may come
from.


 MV> And we have had enough of that.

 JS>>     I think you are of the mindset that we have been separate,
 JS>> separate is all that seems to have ever been, separate is normal,
 JS>> separate is the only way that things can work. Thoughts and ideas
 JS>> from people outside are not to be trusted. Their way is wrong,
 JS>> their way can't work. I make absolutely no claim to any special
 JS>> wisdom. All I am saying Michiel is that zonal differences are the
 JS>> current condition. That doesn't make them nessesary or even good.
 JS>> Let's work to make them go away.

 MV> Too late.


     It's NEVER too late to try Michiel.


 MV>>> No, they were rejected because it would mean dropping the Z2 way
 MV>>> of moderating and thereby giving in to what the hard core who
 MV>>> can not accpet.. etc, etc.

 JS>>      I don't want to misunderstand you here. Are you saying that
 JS>> suggestions were rejected because it would mean the dropping of a
 JS>> way of doing things that is not working anyway?

 MV> No.

 MV> What I am saying is that we have had enough of being forced to do
 MV> things your (Z1) way. In tthe past we had no choice but to put up with
 MV> it, but now that we do not have to any more, we won't.


     Ok, I think I better understand now. Doing things the Z2 way that
isn't working is more important than the wellfare of the Fidonews and the
echo. That is sad and unfortunate. Sorry if this sounds like an insult as
it isn't intended as such. This attitude sounds like what I might expect
from a five year old child. I want to do it MY way and I will NOT listen
to anyone that tells me differant!!!


 JS>> What is more important, the welfare of both the Fidonews and the
 JS>> echo or appearing to be giving in to some small perceived group
 JS>> of troublemmakers? Why give them that much control? Why allow
 JS>> them to dictate how things will be?

 MV> Indeed. Why? Look at the trouble makers and look at the path lines.
 MV> *There* are the real ones allowing it.


     No Michiel. They may be the people causing the trouble. The moderator
is the one allowing it to happen and allowing it to continue. It is upto
the moderator to take the steps nessesary to stop the people from causing
the trouble. Your constant denial of the moderator's responsibility serves
no constructive purpose. All it does is to show people that your way isn't
working and that you refuse to listen to any other ways that may work better.


 JS>> actively work to gain control of the echo and still do it in a
 JS>> zone 2 manner. To me there isn't a Z1 or a Z2 way of doing
 JS>> things. It should be whatever way works the best. The
 JS>> lesser-prefered alternative is to find a moderator that is both
 JS>> willing and capable of doing the job. It shouldn't matter what
 JS>> zone (s)he would be from. All that should matter is that the job
 JS>> gets done.

 MV> Broken record...


     Yup. And doesn't make it any less wrong either. Are you that afraid
to try?


 MV>>>>> Don't like the Z2 way this is handled? Very well, then follow
 MV>>>>> the Z1 way of dealing with an echo that you think is badly
 MV>>>>> moderated: leave and start your own.

 JS>>>>      And what would that solve?

 MV>>> It would give you the kind of echo that you want without taking
 MV>>> from us what we want.

 JS>>      More segregation Michiel.

 MV> The segretation is a fact.


     Only because it has been ALLOWED to continue. And will look to stay
that way if you have your way. It's time to pull you head out of the sand
Michiel. People are not as bad as you WANT to believe. Course, you may not
realize that as you are unwilling to even try.


 JS>> That is NOT a step toward a solution

 MV> There is no solution.


     There is always a solution. The problem is in not seeing the solution.
Or in your case refusing to see a solution.


 MV>>> FidoNet already is hopelessly segregated. I have given up all
 MV>>> hope of ever mending the differences between Z1 and Z2. The
 MV>>> hostilities, the insults and the arrogance, it has been going on
 MV>>> too intense and for too long now. There is a saying "to be
 MV>>> unknown is to unloved", but unfortunately the converse does not
 MV>>> always hold. To get to know each other better does not always
 MV>>> lead to people becoming friends.

 JS>>      Then let those that haven't given up and still have the
 JS>> desire to mend the differences a chance.

 MV> You are free to start your own interzonal echo and give it a try...


     That's not a solution. It is a further denial of the problem and
a further refusal to find a solution.


 JS>>      No, getting to know each other better doesn't guarentee
 JS>> friendship. Never has so far at least.  But getting to know each
 JS>> other better does help us understand each other better.

 MV> And unfortunately he better understanding does NOT lead to us getting
 MV> closer. On the contrary.

 MV>>> If this were a marriage I would file for divorce now on the
 MV>>> grounds of unmendable incompatibilities.


 JS>>      If this were a marriage my daughter would be looking at me
 JS>> funny. <g>


 MV> What I mean tot say is that sometimes it is better to stop attempting
 MV> to mend the unmendable and just let each go his own way.


     Things are only unmendable if one side refuses to listen to anything
and covers their ears and closes their eyes.


 JS>>>>      The echo for that already exists and should be done here.

 MV>>> Your opinion to which you are entitled. It is not going to
 MV>>> happen.

 JS>>      If we can get enough people to accept those differences that
 JS>> we cannot change an work to change those that we can.  We can
 JS>> make it happen.

 MV> Jeff, give it up. We can not make it happen any more than we can put a
 MV> crocodile and a rabit in the same cage and expect to find both alive
 MV> next day.


     They have not the intelligence and act only on instinct. Are you saying
that you can not do better than that?


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20060315
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Jeff

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