Text 40576, 190 rader
Skriven 2006-10-04 00:26:11 av mark lewis (1:3634/12.0)
  Kommentar till text 40557 av BOB KLAHN (1:123/140)
Ärende: pi
==========
 MVDV>>>>>> It does not matter if I agree or not any more than if I
 MVDV>>>>>> agree that it would be better if pi would be equal to 3.0
 MVDV>>>>>> instead of 3.12415.. It just isn't so.

[trim]

 RW> true. Thus, the meaning of your statement leads one to
 RW> think that you've stated that pi is 3.12xxx ... obviously

 BK>  I thought the same thing at first reading. Looking it over
 BK>  again, he actually did not say that.

on the contrary... he *did* state that... witness the following quote of the
original message... specifically the third paragraph that michiel wrote...
starts with "It does not matter"...

FWIW: it looks like a simple "fat finger" job to me but there is also an
accurate call on the mistake which mvdv isn't catching or seeing ;)


====[ FIDONEWS ]==============================================================
On: Sat 30 Sep 2006  0:02    (Arrd: Fri 29 Sep 2006 21:02)
By: Michiel van der Vlist
To: Jeff Smith
Re: terrorism
St:
==============================================================================
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Hello Jeff!

On Thursday September 28 2006 21:45, you wrote to me:

 MV>>>> Jeff, you are starting to sound like a broken record. You try
 MV>>>> to convey the attitude of a reasonable man with a balanced view
 MV>>>> that takes all aspects in consideration,

 JS>>>      I try to be. Wish I succeded more often though.

 MV>> You succeed in /sounding/ reasonable.

 JS>      Well, that's at least a start in the right direction.

Not really. Sounding reasonable is just going off at a tangent, it bring you
neither closer, nor farther away from /being/ reasonable.


 JS>>>      Zone 1, zone 2, why should it matter?

 MV>> Because it *does* matter, that is why. Zonal differences *are* a
 MV>> factor whether you want them to be or not.

 JS> Zonal differences are a factor just as long as we allow them to be.

Wishing it to go away is not going to make it go away.

 JS> Don't you agree that it would be better if people were NOT set
 JS> apart and divided by the zonal seperation that exists today?

It does not matter if I agree or not any more than if I agree that it would be
better if pi would be equal to 3.0 instead of 3.12415.. It just isn't so.

 JS> I know zones will not go away but that doesn't mean that we HAVE to
 JS> keep letting them divide us any more than is absolutely nessesary.

Jeff, I have heard that before. "Let us unite". Let us join forces. Etc, etc,
It is always a euphemism for 'do it my way'.

And we have had enough of that.

 JS>     I think you are of the mindset that we have been separate,
 JS> separate is all that seems to have ever been, separate is normal,
 JS> separate is the only way that things can work. Thoughts and ideas from
 JS> people outside are not to be trusted. Their way is wrong, their way
 JS> can't work. I make absolutely no claim to any special wisdom. All I am
 JS> saying Michiel is that zonal differences are the current condition.
 JS> That doesn't make them nessesary or even good. Let's work to make them
 JS> go away.

Too late.

 MV>> No, they were rejected because it would mean dropping the Z2 way
 MV>> of moderating and thereby giving in to what the hard core who can
 MV>> not accpet.. etc, etc.

 JS>      I don't want to misunderstand you here. Are you saying that
 JS> suggestions were rejected because it would mean the dropping of a way
 JS> of doing things that is not working anyway?

No.

What I am saying is that we have had enough of being forced to do things your
(Z1) way. In tthe past we had no choice but to put up with it, but now that we
do not have to any more, we won't.

 JS> What is more important, the welfare of both the Fidonews and the echo
 JS> or appearing to be giving in to some small perceived group of
 JS> troublemmakers? Why give them that much control? Why allow them to
 JS> dictate how things will be?

Indeed. Why? Look at the trouble makers and look at the path lines. *There* are
the real ones allowing it.

 JS> The solution it would seem would be for the current moderator to
 JS> actively work to gain control of the echo and still do it in a zone 2
 JS> manner. To me there isn't a Z1 or a Z2 way of doing things. It should
 JS> be whatever way works the best. The lesser-prefered alternative is to
 JS> find a moderator that is both willing and capable of doing the job. It
 JS> shouldn't matter what zone (s)he would be from. All that should matter
 JS> is that the job gets done.

Broken record...

 MV>>>> Don't like the Z2 way this is handled? Very well, then follow
 MV>>>> the Z1 way of dealing with an echo that you think is badly
 MV>>>> moderated: leave and start your own.

 JS>>>      And what would that solve?

 MV>> It would give you the kind of echo that you want without taking
 MV>> from us what we want.

 JS>      More segregation Michiel.

The segretation is a fact.

 JS> That is NOT a step toward a solution

There is no solution.

 MV>> FidoNet already is hopelessly segregated. I have given up all
 MV>> hope of ever mending the differences between Z1 and Z2. The
 MV>> hostilities, the insults and the arrogance, it has been going on
 MV>> too intense and for too long now. There is a saying "to be
 MV>> unknown is to unloved", but unfortunately the converse does not
 MV>> always hold. To get to know each other better does not always
 MV>> lead to people becoming friends.

 JS>      Then let those that haven't given up and still have the desire to
 JS> mend the differences a chance.

You are free to start your own interzonal echo and give it a try...

 JS>      No, getting to know each other better doesn't guarentee
 JS> friendship. Never has so far at least.  But getting to know each other
 JS> better does help us understand each other better.

And unfortunately he better understanding does NOT lead to us getting closer.
On the contrary.

 MV>> If this were a marriage I would file for divorce now on the
 MV>> grounds of unmendable incompatibilities.


 JS>      If this were a marriage my daughter would be looking at me funny.
 JS> <g>


What I mean tot say is that sometimes it is better to stop attempting to mend
the unmendable and just let each go his own way.


 JS>>>      The echo for that already exists and should be done here.

 MV>> Your opinion to which you are entitled. It is not going to
 MV>> happen.

 JS>      If we can get enough people to accept those differences that we
 JS> cannot change an work to change those that we can.  We can make it
 JS> happen.

Jeff, give it up. We can not make it happen any more than we can put a
crocodile and a rabit in the same cage and expect to find both alive next day.


Cheers, Michiel

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