Text 42339, 175 rader
Skriven 2006-11-08 04:19:05 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 42338 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Insults
===============
Hello Michiel.

08 Nov 06 09:13, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff!

 MV> On Tuesday November 07 2006 05:08, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> Then why do you expect others to do a lot more than that? Let me
 MV>>> again remind you of what you wrote to me a few weeks ago:

 jF>>>>      What country does the person live that you were responding
 jF>>>> to? Seems to me that you would know how your statement would be
 jF>>>> taken. When you communicate in an international forum such as
 jF>>>> this one should try to take that into account when choosing
 jF>>>> their words.

 JS>>       That was regarding the use of language in general Michiel.

 MV> Right. And the use of names is a special case of the general use of
 MV> language isn't it?

 JS>> I am sure that you would agree that the usage of one's name is a
 JS>> much more personal use of language and one's personal preference
 JS>> regarding their name would therefore play a much more personal
 JS>> part.

 MV> I agree. Wouldn't you agree than that in that case, there is all the
 MV> more reason to take care when choosing your words in an international
 MV> forum such as this?

 MV> Apparently not because you wrote:

 JS>>>      And everyone is supposed to already know that how? People
 JS>>> find out by either asking first if they have the forsight to do
 JS>>> so. Or, they do as I would think most would do what they are
 JS>>> used to doing until they find out otherwise.

 MV> When it comes to the use of something impersonal like the use of the
 MV> term "ISP" you expect me to take into account how it will fall with
 MV> the addressee. In advance. But when it come to a more personal aspect
 MV> of language: the use of names,

 MV>  you think it is all right to use it as you always do. Just like that.

     As I always do? I have always used your first name. Do you have a
problem with my using "Michiel" to refer to you?

     Follow me her Michiel. It is alot easier to make yourself aware of the
use of a term such as ISP as it might be used elsewhere than it would the
personal preference of an individual regarding their name. In other words
a term such as ISP would most likely have the same meaning across the country.
While the personal preference of an individual regarding the usage of their
name can change from person to person.


 MV> Twist it around any way you like but that *is* a double standard Jeff
 MV> and if you really are the honest and impartial man you claim to be you
 MV> would admit it and retract your statements of oct 22nd. The ones where
 MV> you censure me for using the term "ISP" as it is used here where I
 MV> live.


     Your missing the point Michiel. My comment to you regarding your usage
of the more general term "ISP" was based on the fact that it is alot easier
for you to make yourself aware of the different meaning it might have
elsewhere. The same would hold true for me if I had used the term in a post
to you. The usage of one's name is different in that it is a much more personal
preference that may change from one person to the next. If you for example
were to use my name incorrectly I wouldn't expect you to know my preference
until I commented on it. Just like I didn't know your preference regarding
"van der Vlist" until you commented on it to someone else. At which point
I agreed that if the need to use your last name arose I would use your last
name as you requested. Since we are talking about a general term (ISP) and
a specific term (Name) I don't see where any double standard would apply.


 MV>>>>> I live here, I used the term as it is used here.

 jf>>>>     Since you chose to use the term it behoved you to consider
 jf>>>> the meaning it would have by the people that your were
 jf>>>> communicating with.

 MV> Will you retract the above?

     Why? The same thing would apply to me if I had used the term. In
an international echo it just seems like a reasonable thing to do.

 JS>>>>>> the first name of James. Variations here that might be used
 JS>>>>>> would be Jim, Jimmy, Jimbo, Jimster, Etc without there having
 JS>>>>>> to  be an insult intended.

 MV>>>>> I think that is typically American.

 JS>>        I'll take that as an observation rather than an insult.

 MV> Of course it is an observation!

 JS>> As much as you complain about being insulted. I am certain that
 JS>> you would only want to treat others the way that you yourself
 JS>> would like to be treated.

 MV> Your preoccuation is showing Jeff. I can not even make a simple
 MV> observation without you twisting it around to see if an insult can be
 MV> fabricated out of it.

     Not preoccupation Michiel. More like frustration. It would be easier
to communicate with you if you didn't spend so much time trying to look
for insults where there are none. At the very least my comment might have
had a hint of sarcasm in it but no insult. My attitude is that I would
not want to be insulted therfore I try to treat others the same way.

 MV> And also you are putting your head in the sand. There *are* cultural
 MV> differences involved here and refusing to acknowledge them by playing
 MV> the insult card is detrimental to commnication.

     I know and accept the fact that there are differences involved. You
are sure wound up about insults and being insulted. I respect you not wanting
to be insulted. I wouldn't want to be either. But you seem to look for
and expect to find a hidden insult in practically every comment that people
make to you. You act or respond as it you are being insulted often times
when no insult was apparent. You act and look for insults in everything
that I say to you. Insulting people is pointless and is pretty much a
waste of time and effort.


 JS>>        I don't think that the either usage is necessarally wrong.

 MV> So you think that it *could* be wrong? That is patronising Jeff. Why
 MV> do you have to say that. Why not just remain silent if you can not
 MV> fullhearthidly say there is nothing wrong with either usage?

     Wrong is matter of perception. Here calling me "Smith" isn't
generally considered wrong or insulting. There it might be. An
example would be if I were to unknowingly refer to you as "Vlist".
You would take that as an insult and respond as if you wer insulted.
Correct? Even though no insult was meant or intended on my part. Would
it be better to let me know the correct and prefered usage or would
it be better to attack me for insulting you?

 JS>> differently over there. That was the point I was making when I
 JS>> asked how was I supposed to know how you prefered you name to be
 JS>> used prior to either asking you or providing the information.

 MV> And you were so absorbed in making your own point that you totally
 MV> missed mine: I already had this conversation many times over. Frank
 MV> knows *exactly* what is wrong with calling me "vlist" or "mr. vlist".
 MV> Yet he continues to do it. And you just ride along on his bandwagon...


     I have no time for anyone's bandwagon. I made an effort to make my
point clear because you are prone to attaching what you think I mean
without taking the time to fully understand the point being made.


 MV>>> BTW, could you trim down the quotes a little bit when replying
 MV>>> please?

 MV> Apparently not. Even that little courtesy seems to much to ask.... :-(

     Get a grip Michiel. I generally quote the whole message so that
statments are not made or taken out of context. In this message you
omitted part of my statement and I had to find the original message
to make sure I was understanding your reply correctly.


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20060315
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- FMail/Win32 1.60
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - MN USA (1:14/0)