Text 44148, 161 rader
Skriven 2006-12-17 18:29:00 av bob klahn (1:275/311)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Insults
===============

 MvdV>>>>>>> must always be shown in context to know what they mean. The
 MvdV>>>>>>> N word was merely used as an example to clearify a point.
 MvdV>>>>>>> That is no more racism than you quoting the N word.

 bk>>>>  It also should not be used, even in that context.

 MvdV>>> Maybe, maybe not.

 bk>>  Not. I know you don't live in this country, so you have not grown up
 bk>> in this culture. But that word is offensive in any context.

 MvdV>*Any* context? Hmmm....

 MvdV>So how do you tell your children not to use it? When you
 MvdV>can not even use it to tell them what word you are
 MvdV>referring to?

 By pointing out to them that it is offensive. Given a choice,
 never using it at all would be preferable.

 bk>>>> It is not clear in that case if it is or is not intended to be
 bk>>>> racist.

 MvdV>>> There is always the option of giving the writer the
 MvdV>>> benefit of the doubt. These things are bound to happen
 MvdV>>> when one interacts across a culture and a language
 MvdV>>> barrier.

 bk>>  True, which is why I do not call you a racist.

 MvdV>Eh? I am puzzled why you would even consider that.

 I wouldn't, but others would, and you are points behind in
 defending yourself from the start.

 bk>> However, there is also a responsibility for those who do not live in
 bk>> the subject culture to accept the advice of those who do on matters of
 bk>> that culture.

 MvdV>Accept yes. Live up to it ....  maybe.

 Give it your best shot.

 bk>>  That word is always offensive.

 MvdV>I have some difficulty accepting that. I can accept that
 MvdV>it is always offending to *you*. Maybe even to everyone in
 MvdV>your subculture. But always for everyone in the US
 MvdV>culture? Hmmm... no, you willjave to give me a bit more
 MvdV>that just your say so.

 It's not at all offensive to white racists, or maybe even black
 racists. However, it's offensive to decent people. See, I know
 you from other echos, so I count you as one of the decent
 people.

 MVDV>>> What is politically incorrect in one part of the
 MvdV>>> world is often quit acceptable in another part of the
 MvdV>>> world and only by interacting with another culture can one
 MvdV>>> learn these intracacies. Mistakes are bound to happen and
 MvdV>>> a language barrier does not help.

 bk>>  The N-word is never acceptable in this country, and I doubt it
 bk>>  is in any other country. None that I know of.

 MvdV>Then you do not know all that much about other countries.
 MvdV>It certainly is not offensive in *any* context here. It
 MvdV>mostly is, but not always.

 Why would an English language word be used there? And how many
 of those using it understand the meaning and context.

 bk>>  The phrase, "Politically incorrect" is offensive,

 MvdV>Now I am even more puzzled...

 Keep listening, it will all come clear.

 bk>>  IMO, because it covers up the fact that some things are more than
 bk>> incorrect, they are clearly hurtful and offensive. Some things really
 bk>> are wrong.

 MvdV>You are wrong. It depends on culture. What is wrong in one
 MvdV>culture can be perfectly all right in another. There is no
 MvdV>absolute right or wrong.

 No, some things are truly wrong. Regardless of culture. Some
 cultures accept things that are truly wrong, but that doesn't
 mean they are not wrong.

 MvdV>>> In this particular case, it was not addressed to anyone.
 MvdV>>> Those who have too long toes are bound to get stepped on
 MvdV>>> when interacting across a cultural barrier and I say a
 MvdV>>> single instance of the use of a "forbidden" word should
 MvdV>>> not be a reason to label someone a racist and start a
 MvdV>>> crusade that lasts for over two years.

 bk>>  Absolutely true. Now, accept that the word is truly offensive.

 MvdV>I can go as far as to acceptt that it is truly offensive
 MvdV>to *yo*.

 It is to those it is aimed at. If, in some european languages it
 means a white man who works in a watch factory that's another
 matter. However, as a racial descriptive it's offensive. In
 english, it may mean something else entirely in any other
 language.

 MvdV>>> The word was used ONCE, the writer explained that he did not intend
 MvdV>>> it in a racial way and he did not repeat its use. And that is
 MvdV>>> where it should have ended.

 bk>>  Absolutely true.


 bk>>>>  Which is not illegal.

 MvdV>>> Didn't say it was. Just a warming up for the observation
 MvdV>>> that in some cultures is not politically correct to *have*
 MvdV>>> a cleaning lady. Mexican or otherwise. In those cultures
 MvdV>>> someone employing a cleaning lady would be labelled a
 MvdV>>> feodalist.

 bk>>  Which would also miscarry, as it is not relevant to our culture.

 MvdV>But is is relevant to ours...

 IOW, it would not be clear here.

 bk>>  Though I would not have one. (I can't afford one.)

 MvdV>Not many people can. If you think about it, you will
 MvdV>realise that there can never be a situation where the
 MvdV>majority of the people can afford a cleaning lady, let
 MvdV>alone that everyone can have one.

 MvdV>As long as there are cleaning ladies, society will be
 MvdV>divided into people that can afford one and people that
 MvdV>have no choice bit to be one...

 Not exactly true. If there were fewer people who had no choice,
 those who wanted one would have to pay enough that some people
 would do it for the pay increase. At $100,000/yr a lot of people
 will clean houses. Hell, I'd think about it. Maybe.

 MvdV>The phenomenum of cleaning ladies emphesises unequality in
 MvdV>society and that is offensive to some in some cultures.
 MvdV>Therefore bragging about having a cleaning lady is a no-no
 MvdV>in those cultures.

 Agreed, and I understand where you are coming from on this.
 I have read the rest of the exchange, or much of it. I don't
 think he understands what you are saying, but I do.

BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... A Proverb is a short sentence based on long experience.
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