Text 44744, 127 rader
Skriven 2006-12-24 14:11:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 44668 av Dale Shipp (1:261/1466.0)
Ärende: Points vs users
=======================
Hello Dale!

On Sunday December 24 2006 00:24, you wrote to me:

 MVDV>> I have been the Dutch point coordinator since 1996.

I brought it up because the pointlist is a pretty good indication of the rise
and fall of FidoNet here in The Netherlands and I have the data available.

 MVDV>> Because local calls are  metered here, most of the FidoNet
 MVDV>> echomail participants did so as points rather than users.

 DS> I am aware of the difference between having metered local calls
 DS> such as you state versus having unlimited and untimed local calls,
 DS> which is what we have here in the US for most home wired services (but
 DS> not or cell phone wireless services).

When one reads through P4 with an open mind, one can not help noticing it was
written with the presumption of "free" local calls....

Anyway, local calls have not always been metered here. I do not recall the
exact date, but somewhere around 1985, they switched from a fixed amount per
call - independent of duration - to a charge per time unit.

 DS> But I had never realized that it would have effect on the user
 DS> versus point decision.

It certainly did and it was an important reason why pointing was so succesful
in Europe. It was not the only reason though....

 DS> It would seem to me that it would take the same amount of time to
 DS> download mail either way.  Why is that not correct?

Off-line readers like BlueWave were never popular here. When the calls were
still flat rate, BBS users would read and write messages on-line. Sometimes
staying on-line for hours. When the telcom started metering local calls there
was a strong incentive to go to off-line reading and writing.

Off-line readers are less efficient than point software, but my guess is that
other reasons also played an important role in making the decision.

1) Point software is a bit more difficult to set up than BlueWave, but once it
is installed it offers more than off-line readers. F.e. it allowed freqqing
files at any FidoNet system.

2) Pointing was introduced at the right time. Henk Wevers offered a trimmed
down version of his DUTCHIE mailer when FidoNet was still 2D and points used a
fake net address. Just when it was needed because the Telco started metering.

3) There was no chicken and egg problem as with BlueWave. Not all BBSs
supported BlueWave and/or QWK and as few users asked for it, there was little
incentive for the syops to support it. Every FidoNet system however already had
a mailer and so it was very little extra work for the sysop to support points.

4) Pointing was promoted and sponsored by the HCC who also sponsored net 500.
Club members who became points got a four digit point numner that was unique
*across the net*. They were not "tied" to one boss.

5) Points had *status*. Although formally they had no direct say in things,
they had an indirect say because of their club membership of the HCC, who
sponsored net 500. The hardware in net 500 was club owned and the sysops were
keepers appointed by the club. Ever so often a point was cosysop on his bosses
system and as such was entitled access to sysop echos and sysop meetings.

6) When FidoNet grew and net 500 was no longer the only net in Europe, the
success of pointing carried over to the new nets that were not sponsored by a
club and where the equipment was privately owned. Again, although without
formal status per policy, points were regarded higher than users, not in the
least because pointing was also looked at as a breeding ground for new nodes.
Almost every sysop, except for the first generation pioneers, started as a
point.

So it was really a combination of factors that lead to the success of pointing.
Fact was that users became a minor factor early in the game here and in the
haydays the bulk of the echomail traffic was written by points.

 MVDV>> FidoNet. Contratry to what you and others suggest, NONE of
 MVDV>> them ever mentioned the fights or the failing organisation
 MVDV>> as a reason for leaving. No, their stated reasons always
 MVDV>> boiled down to: "the internet has so much more to offer".

 DS>    I agree with you there as far as users / points are concerned.  I
 DS>    think that many of them are either unaware or ignore what goes on
 DS>    in the sysop echos or echos like this one.

That does not hold for the situation here. The main fight here was the seven
year cost share war. Points were very aware of that because it affected them.
"Why can't my buddy across the street have this echo that I have here? Because
he is in a another net that is with the "other" CSO and we do not exchange
echomail...."

As I mentioned elsewhere I was the moderator of the national points echo, one
of the half a dozen or so that *was* carried across the front of the CSO war.
It took every inch of my moderator skills to keep it on-topic....

 DS> OTOH, the fighting and bitching that goes on does sometimes drive a
 DS> person away -- more likely it will drive a sysop away, and then that
 DS> sysop's users (if any) are left with no source.

I will not say, it never happened that a sysop pulled the plug because he got
tired of the fighting. But then his points usually found a new boss fairly
quickly. Points use mailers and a nodelist, just like sysops. It is as easy for
a point to find a new uplink (Boss) as it is for a sysop to find a new uplink
if his present uplink quits.

 MVDV>> I can see it from their point of view.

 DS>    So can I.

 MVDV>> I say there is no basis for blaming the FidoNet hyrachie
 MVDV>> for the demise of FisoNet.

 DS>   It is certainly not the only factor, and probably not even a major
 DS> one.

I don't think it was ever more than a minor factor, if a factor at all. Look at
it this way: Despite the massive shrink, FidoNet is still considerably larger
than any of the remaining othernets. Some of which allegedly do not have the
fighting....

Nah, I think it is just as the ex-points that I interviewed say: the internet
has so much more to offer for them.

Cheers, Michiel

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