Text 4605, 138 rader
Skriven 2005-01-06 16:55:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
   Kommentar till text 4592 av Matt Bedynek (1:106/1)
Ärende: Pee-Four
================
Hello Matt,

 >  MvdV> You overlook the third option: agree to disagree and
 >  MvdV> live with it.

 > The why do you try to push echopol?

I am not "pushing" it. I am merely pointing out that it worked for us. And that
for you, you have the choice between anarchy or adopting some rules.

 > Why not say this everytime a dispute comes up?  With this kind of
 > thinking why do we need any policy at all?

You need rules so that people know what is acceptable and what is not.

 >  MvdV> Creating an echo is easy. getting rid of it, is not.
 >  MvdV> The logical thing would have been to disband fido_sysop
 >  MvdV> when it no longer served a purpose. Its purpose was to
 >  MvdV> provide an alternative for those that could not live
 >  MvdV> with Roy as moderator. When Roy was ousted, it no
 >  MvdV> longer served a purpose and the logical thing would
 >  MvdV> have been to disband it.

 > Why?

Because it is a waste of resources and spreads them out thinner. And with that
I mean human resources, not machine resources.

 > I bet everyone that is linked to fn_sysop is also
 > liked to fido_sysop.

Exactly! And so one of them is redundant. Especially after this echo is forced
back into what it was three years ago.

The best helpdesk is the help desk that I never need vecause I never have a
problem.

The best moderated echo is the echo for which I don't even know who the
moderator is because he solves all the problems behind the scenes and before
they escalate into such proportions they become noticable.

Why would I need two of those echos with the same topic?

Haven't you noticed how the flow is oscilating between FIDONEWS, FN_SYSOP and
IC?

There is a 95% overlap in participants. Why do we need three echos if they are
de facto all general chat areas? It makes no sense to me.

What I see is oscilating flow. That is a sign that each of these areas is on
the verge of critical mass. You don't go vreating more echos if you can't even
keep one above critical mass.

 > I think the answer is more simple. Basically, we have a bunch
 > of men going through a mid-life crisis

I have had my mid-life crisis twenty five years ago.

 > who feel a chance to express their rigid view.  They
 > are so unwilling to capitulate.

Why stress the need to capitulate? Is there a war going on that must be won by
someone?

 > Perhaps it is due to frustration of working a crappy job or
 > living in an environment where they have no control.

Well, I think we can safely say that the one;s with the real good jobs aren't
here. Peole with a top job don;t have time for this crap.

 > The chance to be an asshole is all to appealing to pass up.  :-)

I don;t want to be an asshole. But I can't stop others from typecasting me into
one.

 >  MvdV> I think this illustrates another difference in culture
 >  MvdV> bewteen Z1 and Z2. we dont go creating a new echo every
 >  MvdV> time a dissident farts. Maybe it has to do with the
 >  MvdV> fact that we can't run away from the neighbours as
 >  MvdV> easely as settlers in a new country can.

 > Oh really?

Yes, I really think there is a fundamentak difference.

 > I bet you all are much more similar than you realize.

Ironically it is FidoNet that made me realize we are much more different than I
thought before.

 > I bet if we dig into history we will find remarkable parellelisms.

I am not interested in history, I am interested in the present. And I see big
differences in culture.

 >  MvdV> Creating alternative echos is rare here. I am not saying that it
 >  MvdV> never happens, but is is rare. In all the time that I have
 >  MvdV> participated in FidoNet there has never been an altenative for
 >  MvdV> ENET.SYSOP as far as I know. And it is not that it was always
 >  MvdV> peaceful there. But even during the "German Putch" and the attempts
 >  MvdV> of the previous ZC2 to regionalize R25 and R28, there never was more
 >  MvdV> that one Z2 sysop echo.

 > So it does not have a moderator and never has needed one?

Oh, there is a moderator. But he very seldom comes into action. Not often
enough apparently to alienate enough people to the point that they want their
own echo.

In fact from the twelve+ years that I now have been monitoring ENET.SYSOP I can
only recall ONE case of a sysop who's feed was cut. Paul Dickey who was evicted
by the late Ron Dwight.

 > That is amazing.  It is too bad the rest of the world is
 > not like that.

Indeed. And I still think it has to do with cultural difference. We in Europe
have learned to resolve our conflicts without the use of violence or
repression. Well, most of the time anyway. It wasn't always so, but we have
learned. The hard way.

And it reflects on FidoNet. Z2 style of moderation IS different. Too bad indeed
it does not work with the Z1 folks around. :-(

 > I mean, where people never disagree,

Of course people disagree. But we don't need policeman to keep the disagreers
apart.

 > break rules or need consequences.  In fact, I bet there are no
 > criminals, prisons, or anything where you live.  :-)

Of course there are. But this is a hobby, not real life.

Cheers, Michiel

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