Text 46294, 142 rader
Skriven 2007-01-01 01:44:58 av Matt Bedynek (1:106/1)
  Kommentar till text 45195 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Kindergarten
====================
Hello Michiel.

28 Dec 06 11:21, you wrote to me:

 MvdV> That status quo you mention never existed but in part of Fidonet. Here
 MvdV> in Z2 the moderator was never invincible. What Roy did was attempt to
 MvdV> ban a user "just because he could".  Here in Z2 no moderator would
 MvdV> have gotten away with that.

The moderator is not invincible here either.  As a node, the moderator is
directly subject to policy and practice.  As a user of a bbs, the moderator is
just one more step down the chain but the same thing still ultimately applies. 
Even still, if a moderator were to become a burden to those that carry the echo
- what do you think will happen?  If I were plagued with a burden of a
moderator, I would drop their conference and save the frustration.  If a
moderator is a bad one, he will create a situation where all the users vacate
the conference and start a new one that will likely be far more sucessful.  No
administator intervention needed.

 MvdV> The user would have appealed to the ZEC and the ZEC would have
 MvdV> reversed the moderator's decision because the moderator
 MvdV> was unable to show what rule had been violated.

Really? You have an active ZEC?  So, when people were booted from fn_sysop, did
they contact that ZEC?  It seems to me you in Z2 say "we use echopol" but are
actually using a bastardized version of it.  You cannot claim to have used any
of it in totality -- only parts that are convenient.

 MvdV> With increased interaction between the zones such a conflict was bound
 MvdV> to occur sooner or later.

Especially with too many egoes involved.

 MvdV> If it had been done maintaining the (Z1) status quo. The majority of
 MvdV> participants choose another path. It s no use crying over spilled
 MvdV> milk...

I will expect you to remain silent when people from this zone complains about
the moderator here. You lost the right to complain when you endorsed such
behavior in fn_sysop.

 MvdV> I am not the one complaining about lack of articles...

I was making a comparison.

 MvdV> Your opinion. It was only your tradition....

It works far better than your bastardized use of echopol.  The moment your way
was tested everything broke and it still is.  This conference and fn_sysop
cannot be moderated even if the moderator wanted to.   I venture to say that if
push comes to shove, no others can be either.

 MvdV> No. Roy abused his power and made the error of doing it against a
 MvdV> participant who had enough support to stand up against it. Roy
 MvdV> overplayed his hand.

You just said half a dozen times in a dozen different messages that the
moderator has no power.  If the moderator has no power, how can he abuse it?

 MvdV> The lesson should be that someone who has been voted in can be voted
 MvdV> out if he/she abuses the position.

Yes, next year, next election.  If fn_sysop has a shitty moderator this year,
as capable operators (we probaly carry the conference already) switch to
another.  Anything less is simply children fighting over who can control the
echotag and get their way.

 MB>>  Nobody forces you to remain a fidonet node.

 MvdV> And nobody can force me to submit to rules I never was part in
 MvdV> creating and never agreed to follow...

Nobody forced you to link in to and use fn_sysop.

 MvdV> When you look into their hearts, most people do not want to be
 MvdV> moderated. Why else would so many have left for the anarchy of
 MvdV> usenet?

I use internet msg boards (html) that are wholely owned by a single individual
or group of individuals.  They have no written policy or agreement to their
users.  They can boot you without any cause whatsoever.  And, ironically, any
single one of those message boards are far more active and lively than the
whole of this side of fidonet.  When a user gets out of line and refuses to
comply he is booted and peace resumes.

A person like you would log in to the forums and say "I did not agree to your
rules.  Where did I sign?  This forum is on the internet I can do what I want. 
You cannot moderate me!"  Your system not only promotes chaos and anarchy but
encourages it.  You compare echomail conferences and rogue moderators to living
in a country.

Your echopol system might work if even you all used it as it is written but
from where I am sitting it seems you only reference parts of it to give
validity to your actions.   No offense, but your arguement is highly
hypocritial, lacks logic, and is poorly constructed.

 MvdV> So why are you still here?

I'm a diehard.  I love the technology, fidonet gives me a chance to keep my
programming skills, as limited as they are, active and used.  I enjoyed fidonet
from the moment I discovered it as a user.

 MvdV> Good question. OTOH, why are the echos with anarchy so popular?
 MvdV> Remember FIDO_SYSOP? Created as an alternative for FN_SYSOP.  In
 MvdV> theory it is run exactly the way you and Jeff and the others who
 MvdV> complain about the anarchy want. In practise... it is dead. So why is
 MvdV> that?

fn_sysop, compared to past patterns, is essentially dead.  Why is that?

 MvdV> That has been going on ever since most of the technicians left
 MvdV> leaving the polictians in the driver's seat.

Even if all the technicians remained we would be no further ahead.  In fact,
the technicans really never left, we left the technicans.  They kept on going,
developing new technology and we simply chose to not follow.  Fidonet used to
follow its technology, not the other way around.

 MvdV> The echotag never was yours in the first place. That is your error.
 MvdV> The consencus that a moderator "owns" and echo never was network
 MvdV> wide.  It existed only in your part of the world. In other parts of
 MvdV> Fidonet en echo is not "owned". On those other parts the moderator
 MvdV> is a user tolerated care taker at best.

Sure, I can branch off fidonews and carry my own echo with that tag. But your
statement proves my contention is that people only remain and engage in such
actions out of pride.  It is not "over simplification", it is fact.

 MvdV> As I see it you simply have failed to adapt to the reality of
 MvdV> globalisation. ;-)

fn_sysop has been carried outside of the zone for longer than you realize.

The globalization was already done and gone long before you attempted to asset
your idea of order.

Matt

em: matt [at] thunderdome.us | icq: 16568532 | yahoo: mbedynek

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