Text 7058, 143 rader
Skriven 2005-03-15 08:52:04 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av mark lewis
Ärende: FidoNews 22:08 [00/06]: The Front Page
==============================================
Hello mark,

14 Mar 2005 20:40, mark lewis wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

 ml>>>>> what is so hard about seeing that relationship in the
 ml>>>>> analogies of "spider", "crawl" and "web"???

 MvdV>>>> You keep forgetting - or ignoring - that I am not a
 MvdV>>>> native English speaker.

 ml>>> i'm not forgetting or ignoring... that doesn't even come
 ml>>> into the picture, in my mind...

 MvdV>> So you won't even acknowledge that their might be a problem.

 ml> i didn't say that...

Yes you did, see below.

 ml> this particular case isn't so hard that one cannot figure out what is 
 ml> being said...

You have no way of knowing how difficult it is for a non native speaker.

 MvdV>> Ypu obviously have no idea what problems a non native English
 MvdV>> speaker can run into.

 ml> likely true... i can only try to explain when asked in a 
 ml> _non-combative_ manner... too many don't seem to think about that 
 ml> aspect, though... they'd rather jump out with all guns blazing...

Well, let us recapitulate: You asked "Is spamming legal, is e-mail harvesting,
is web spidering?" to which I answered No, No, what is web spidering?"

And instead of just asnwering the question you started to betlittle me over my
ignorance. Now who is lookong for combat?

 MvdV>>>> So associations work different in different langages.
 MvdV>>>> "Spidering" is not a word I know and that I can find in a
 MvdV>>>> dictionary.

 ml>>> shouldn't matter...

 MvdV>> But it does and your opinion that it shouldn't is not
 MvdV>> goint to alter the fact that it does.

 ml> why does it matter that you cannot locate the term in a dictionary? 

Because I have no other way of knowing what it means. Other than asking a
native speaker, but if he won't anser...

 ml> there are many words that i cannot locate in a dictionary on any 
 ml> given day... doesn't prevent me from figuring out what is being 
 ml> discussed and even participating...

True. After all that is how people learn their native language. But to infer
the meaning of a word one has to see or hear it many times in context. And even
then it is risky bussines, one may arrive at the wrong conclusion. It takes
kids years to properly learn a language and the ability to pick up a new
langauage fades with the years. 
    
 ml>>> you've a brain and are a smart individual... you
 ml>>> should be able to derive the meaning of the word...

Getting the meaning of a word from a single occurence is just not possible.

 MvdV>> But the fact is that I am not. And don't think I am the
 MvdV>> exception. Every non native English speaker has that problem.

 ml> please, stop with the "non native english speaker" argument...

See... you won't hear of it. 

 ml> taught numerous languages as a matter of course in normal 
 ml> schooling... in the US, "alternative" languages are generally 
 ml> electives and not required... i've never taken any language courses 
 ml> other than english and then only when forced to by the curiculum...

So you really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to foreign
languages and non native speakers.

 MvdV>>>> "Web" can mean a variety of things,

 ml>>> hunh?

 MvdV>> Consult a dictionary. My TSOD gives some two dozens meanings
 MvdV>> for "web". Only theree or four are associtaed with spiders.

 ml> yeah, so...

So why would I associate "web" with "spider".

 ml> the terms in discussion are about spiders

Where did "spider" come in?  You mentioned "spidering". Why would I - as a non
native English speaker - asscociate that with "spider"?

 ml> so those related to spiders are those that you should be
 ml> concerned with in this discussion...

Circular reasoning. To make the association with "spider" I should first make
the associataion with "spider". And as long as I have not made that association
- and there was no particular reason why I should - there is no reason to focus
on those meanings of "web" associated with "spider".

 MvdV>>>> so why should I associate the word wide web with a spider
 MvdV>>>> crawling ?

 ml>>> because it has been being used like that for over ten years??

 MvdV>> Never heard it before you brouht it up.

 ml> sorry... i didn't realize that today's common and widespread 
 ml> technology is such a sheltered subject...

What you fail to realize - AGAIN - is that I am not a native English speaker.
Books and newspapers in this part of the world are in Ducth, not in English.
The fact is that I have never heard the term "web spidering" before you brought
it up. And that has nothing to do with my level of knowledge of the technology,
but all with the fact that I live in a society where Dutch and not English is
the language of the day.

 MvdV>>>> To you as a native English speaker the association may be
 MvdV>>>> obvious, to me it is not.

 ml>>> no, i learned the association over ten years ago when it was first
 ml>>> started being used...

 MvdV>> Not in my language.

 ml> please stop it with the language mess... you're smarter than that and 
 ml> we all know it...

It is nu use trying to explain it to you.

Go to a country where they don't speak English and see how far you get with
figuring out what they mean when they speak to you...


Cheers, Michiel

--- Msged 6.0.1
 * Origin: Woolum nastatium percolum hazip. (2:280/5555)