Text 11047, 143 rader
Skriven 2008-02-13 14:54:22 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 11018 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Shootings in USA
========================
Hello Michiel.

13 Feb 08 16:03, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Monday February 11 2008 20:22, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> I beg to differ. Not having guns is not what *I* consider a lost
 MV>>> freedom.

 JS>>      That is the point I have tried to make to others also. I
 JS>> have no problem with you or anyone else in other countries
 JS>> thinking as they choose. That is their/your right as I see it.
 JS>> But when they start saying that what we as Americans believe
 JS>> should or shouldn't be our right in our own country is wrong.
 JS>> That is what I object to. I am making no judgements as to whose
 JS>> idea might be better.

 MV> Oh, but you do pass judgement. In your previous message you wrote:

 JS>>>>      Umm... Sorry but raping girls isn't what anyone that I
 JS>>>> know here would consider a lost freedom. Course that may be
 JS>>>> differant in other countries but I would hope not.

 MV> The "I hope not" is passing judgment on those that have not yet
 MV> abolished the practise of raping girls.

    The "I hope not" means I personally wouldn't consider raping young
girls as a freedom. That being the case I still can not judge what is
right for people in other countries. That is for them to decide. You have
stated that you can not see our need or desire to own or possess guns.
Aren't YOU passing judgement on what you think is best for us or is
your statements just your personal opinion?

 JS>> What you and/or the people there think is better for your country
 JS>> is fine with me.

 MV> Your government seems to think different. Now they are trying again to
 MV> get armed (US) air marshals on board every airplane entering US air
 MV> space. So also on KLM planes. Something we are dead set against. You
 MV> (Ye all) *are* trying to push your ways on us.

     Is our government insisting air marshals be only on flights that enter
US airspace. Or are they wanting air marshals on other flights in your country
too? It doesn't suprize me that they are concerned about what might directly
have a negative impact on the US. In fairness though I wouldn't see
a problem with your government feeling the same way about their airspace.

 JS>> The fact that we as Americans choose to want to keep a right that
 JS>> we have seemingly always had is up to us to decide.

 MV> Sure. But then if you do you can expect *us* to use the right to
 MV> express our opinion on it.

     You would be exercising the same right that everyone else here is. Is
there a differance between me saying that I personally don't see why the
raping of young girls should be considered a right. And me saying that I
think you, your countrymen, or your government are wrong for believing as
they choose?

 MV> Just like we would express our opinion on
 MV> countries that decide to retain the right of stoning adulterous women,
 MV> deciding to retain the droit de signeur or the practice of
 MV> cannibalism.

 MV>>> That may have something to do with the fact that I never had
 MV>>> that right to begin with.

 JS>>      Very true. Your opinion is in part I think based on the fact
 JS>> that in your country having or owning a gun has never been
 JS>> considered a right. And therefore it is easier for you to form
 JS>> the opinion that guns should be banned. Here we look at it
 JS>> differantly.

 MV> My other point was that in a non static society rights can not always
 MV> be forever. So considering something a right is not a very strong
 MV> argument for continuing the practice until Kingdom come.

     It should be the people that decide what rights are desired. It is
true that times are always a changing. It is also true that differant
societies and countries react differantly and at differant rates to the
changing times. Does one country's rate of change mean that it is better
than another country's? Is your country ahead of ours? Is my country
ahead of yours? Or, are they just somewhat differant? I think too much
time is spent on who is better.

 MV>>> Societies evolve and rights can not be unlimited. The right of
 MV>>> the one is almost always an intrusion on the right of someone
 MV>>> else. Compromises have to be made and for it to work these
 MV>>> compromises have to be laid down in laws.

 JS>>      The problem arises when the government takes it upon
 JS>> themselves to determine what the people want or what the
 JS>> government thinks is best for the people.

 MV> There is no way a government can push something through if there is no
 MV> general acceptance of the measures taken. They can lead but they can
 MV> not force. Not in a democracy.

    I think that that happens more that what you would like to think. How
often are laws, legislations, amendments, enacted based not on the true
will of the people but more on the will and cooperation of government and
big business?

 JS>> Maybe I from the old school but I still think the government
 JS>> should reflect what the people as a whole think is right for
 JS>> them.

 MV> I fully agree here. But the flip side of the medal is that if they do,
 MV> the people as a whole will be held responsible for the actions of
 MV> their government.

    And would be as it should be.

 MV>>> Our society has evolved to the point where we do not need
 MV>>> citizens to have guns. Other societies have not advanced to that
 MV>>> point yet. They banned rape, but still allow guns.

 JS>>      Again you judge others and what is right for them based on
 JS>> yourself and your society.

 MV> I used my freedom of speech to express my opinion on societies who's
 MV> citizens have not yet waived their right to carry arms.

 JS>>>>      Umm... Sorry but raping girls isn't what anyone that I
 JS>>>> know here would consider a lost freedom. Course that may be
 JS>>>> differant in other countries but I would hope not.

 MV> Just like you did on countries who's citizens have not yet waived the
 MV> right to rape girls.  If it is ok for you to do that, it should be ok
 MV> for me as well.


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)