Text 14983, 146 rader
Skriven 2008-05-09 10:00:56 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 14957 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
Ärende: Martial arts
====================
Roy Witt wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday May 08 2008 at 21:56:

RB>> And your trust of people with "legal" firearms is touching, but not
RB>> convincing.

RW> That's ok, I don't need to convince you. You may live in your world
RW> without.

I think I understand human nature better than you do, at least in this specific
case. Just to repeat: none of us are machines, and that specifically includes
"legal" gun owners.

RB>> As I say, none of us are machines. I'm absolutely convinced you - and
RB>> I - could be incited to murder under the appropriate conditions.

RW> In my case, it would be called self-defense.

Yes, I'm familiar with the "I felt threatened" excuse. The police here use it
whenever they shoot an unarmed civilian. But of course, you're not a policeman.

RB>> It's so easy to pull a trigger.

RW> I guess if you felt not responsible for your actions, that would be
RW> true. Cooler heads always prevail.

Are you kidding or do you really believe that?

RB>> You might be interested to know that such things as "road rage"
RB>> simply don't exist in Germany.

RW> LOL! Yeah, that not so free society where you can be sued for calling
RW> someone a derogitory name.

Like to explain what that has to do with the subject?

RB>> Nor do people carry guns to "protect" themselves.

RW> BS...

Truth. How long have _you_ lived in Germany that you dispute it?

RB>> Nor are people shot by hoodlems trying to rob them.

RW> More BS...

Same comment. Just because this exists in the States is no reason to assume it
exists everywhere.

RB>> Nor do violent "gangs" exist to shoot up the cities.

RW> Soon.

Don't hold your breath.

RW>  Intentional Deaths: United States vs.Continental Europe Rates

RW> In order of highest combined rate; nations having higher rates than
RW> the United States are indicated by asterisk (suicide rate) or + sign
RW> (murder rate).

I don't read anything about firearms out of that. Do you?

But I do read: Murder - USA 7.8, Germany 1.1. Suicide is a completely different
matter... I would suspect people generally shoot themselves in the States,
whereas people hang or poison themelves in Germany. But that's a national trait
- in Japan, suicide is "honorable" and presumably more prevalent than in any of
the countries you cite. However, suicide by firearms is presumably low because
of the gun laws.

RB>> I suspect you in rural Texas also have no problems with such things,
RB>> but from what the media report, things in larger cities are pretty
RB>> hairy.

RW> I'm not exactly in rural Texas, it's a small city with a population of
RW> about 53,000.

In the States that's "rural" ;-) I live in a town with a population of around
35,000 and I think we may have a murder or two a year. Certainly not with
firearms, though. As I mentioned previously, knives are a good deal more
common.

RB>> I can remember my sister coming home one day (Cincinnati) and telling
RB>> how some crazy had shot three people at an office not far from where
RB>> she worked. That was in 2003.

RW> Diane Feinstein, now a US Senator, but then a San Francisco
RW> Council-person watched a mad man shot the mayor and several others on
RW> the City Hall steps. And there was a ban on firearms in that city.

Who cares about the city when all you have to do is to go to the next town to
get a gun?

RB>> Roy, the last time I was in the States was 2003. Have things changed
RB>> so radically since then, except of course the absolute paranoia
RB>> toward foreigners?

RW> There are currently 40 states that allow some sort of CC, while in 03,
RW> there may have been 30 or 32. Those with 'will issue' conceal carry
RW> permit laws have shown a decline in gun violence.

As always, I have to point out that two facts are not necessarily causally
related. The causality must be demonstrated.

RW> Before 03, I recall hearing and reading about foreigners (Germans)
RW> being robbed and killed on the Florida highways.

In Miami, and the reason was that the Florida rental cars had special plates
that made people driving them targets if they got into the "wrong"
neighborhood. In the meantime, the state mandates that rental cars bear normal
Florida plates.

RW> Again, they were killed by people who do not obey any laws, so
RW> obviously, those who have firearms legally, and/or are licensed to
RW> carry, do not commit these crimes. Criminals do.

You _do_ have a simplistic view of things. Naturally I disagree.

RB>> On the other hand, as I say, my experience runs right up to 2003.
RB>> Don't assume I have no knowledge of the States just because I haven't
RB>> actually lived there for many years.

RW> Actually, I'll stand by what I said. You may have visited, but you
RW> have no idea what the States are really like. You cannot determine
RW> that over a few weeks visiting.

If I had _only_ visited, you might be right. But that's not the case.

RB>> In fact, I suspect my knowledge of the States is a good deal better
RB>> than yours of Europe...

RW> I never claimed that I did. And this isn't about how much I know about
RW> Europe, it's about how much you don't know about America.

And yet you try to make comparisons, as above, based on statistics. And
statistics _do_ lie, as Chrchill one pointed out.

RW> How many years have you lived in the States since you moved to
RW> Germany?

Nice try. How many years have you lived in Germany, that you think you can
judge and compare so well?

Cheers, Bob

--- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
 * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)