Text 15304, 330 rader
Skriven 2008-05-13 11:14:08 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 15228 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Thought crime...again
=============================
Hello Michiel.

13 May 08 10:49, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Saturday May 10 2008 21:40, you wrote to me:

 MV>>>>>  You do fire them on occasion.

 JS>>>>      Yes I do. There's an indoor firing range less than a mile
 JS>>>> away that I visit occasionally.

 JS>>       Sorry, but I guess being indoors there isn't a chance of me
 JS>> hitting a Dutchman. You might want to change the rules abit to
 JS>> account for that.

 MV> So you say that whatever intentions you had, you never could have
 MV> carried them out.

     Not really. I was merely stating the obvious.


 MV>  Well, Menno Blom could never have had sex with an American girl from
 MV> behind his computer in The Netherlands.

    That wasn't what he was charged with doing now was it?

 MV>  The US did not want to take that into account, so no, I do not want
 MV> to take change the rules either.

    The US I presume took into account what he had done and what he was
trying to do. At least some of which were illegal.

 JS>>>>      Here's where your scenario looses all believability and
 JS>>>> becomes silly.

 MV>>> Exactly my thoughts when I first heard about the Menno Blom
 MV>>> case.

 JS>>      The differance that you can't avoid Michiel is that in the
 JS>> Blom case a US law was broken.

 MV> And if we make a law that says coming to The Netherlands while owning
 MV> and having fired a gun is against the law, then you will break that
 MV> law when you come to The Netherlands. What is the difference other
 MV> than that the latter has not happened yet?

     Given your scernario. I would simply not travel to the Netherlands.
In the Blom case he chose to travel to the US to commit his crime. There
is little doubt in my mind that he knew what he wanted, and was determined
to get it regardless of it being illegal in many countries including where
he chose to go.

 JS>>      Your scenario beyond being silly could not be effectively
 JS>> enforced

 MV> Why could it not be enforced?

     You are suggesting that the Dutch LEA's are going to arrest everyone
foreign and Dutch alike that have ever owned or have ever fired a gun?

a) How will they determine ownership?

b) How will they determine who has ever fired a gun?

c) Where will all the people be incarcerated?

d) Need I continue?


 JS>>  and would have next to chance of ever being a law anyway.

 MV> I thought the same when I first heard about the American law regarding
 MV> coming to the USA with intent to have sex with a minor. I was wrong.

    You might want to check the laws in other countries. More and more
countries are agreeing on a common idea regarding the protection of
children and the preemptive efforts to catch people involved in child
sex tourism.

 MV>>> So your defence is that you could never have actually hurt a
 MV>>> Dutch citizen because while you were in the US you were out of
 MV>>> range and while you were in The Netherlands you did not bring
 MV>>> the gun.

 JS>>      That would work also.

 MV> It did not work for Menno Blom.

     But then he did break your imaginary Dutch law now did he? He
did break and existing US law did he not? For which he was arrested.

 MV>>> Well, Menno Blom never actually had sex with a US girl.

 JS>>      We are making the assumption that that was his first
 JS>> attempt.

 MV> Presumed innocent until proven guilty....

     By the judicial system maybe. People judge anyway that they choose.
I am not saying that that is usually fair. Just that that is the way people
are.

 JS>> By the time that child sex offenders are caught and arrested they
 JS>> have usually molested a number of children already.

 MV> By the time gun offenders are caught and arrested they have usually
 MV> molested a number of people already.

     Weak analogy. Guns are a thing, a tool, something that people use
for a number of purposes.

     People having guns has resulted in lower crime rates and the deaths
related to guns has dropped in recent years since the easing of gun laws
here. Reality doesn't seem to support your argument there Michiel.

 MV>>> So you say the scenario is unrealistic. Exactly my thoughts when
 MV>>> I first heard about the Menno Blom case.

 JS>>     Hardly Michiel. You choose to draw a simularity because you
 JS>> disagree with the tactics of the US LEA's.

 MV> And you reject my example because you choose to believe that it would
 MV> never happen...

     If you mean my view of the likelyhood of me firing a gun here and
hitting a Dutchman in the Netherlands? Yup.

 JS>> The fact of the matter is that your scenario is no where near
 JS>> being realistic.

 MV> Exactly my thoughts when I first heard about the Blom case. I was
 MV> wrong.

 JS>>  Yet you expect people to take you seriously.

 MV> Exactly my thoughts when I first heard about the Blom case. I was
 MV> wrong.

     Don't you think that Blom should have taken the law more seriously?

 JS>>     Menno Blom broke a US law and was arrested on US soil. Sounds
 JS>> like a logical conclusion to an illegal act.

 MV> As will happen to you when we adopt the UAGL (Universal Anti Gun Law)
 MV> and you come to the Netherlands.

     That is assuming that I choose to knowingly break the law like
Blom did.

 MV>>> I think that the US girls were safe from Menno Blom.

      Thanks to the efforts of the US LEA's. Yes they are.

 JS>>      Doubtfull Michiel. Reports from several US universities
 JS>> suggest that child molesters in general assault many victims
 JS>> before they are apprehended.

 JS>>      Doubtfull Jeff. Reports from several US universities suggest
 JS>> that gun addicts in general assault many victims before they are
 JS>> apprehended.

 JS>>  And if they are allowed to return to commit their crime again,
 JS>> it is very likely that they would. Why not? Who will stop them?
 JS>> That is the reason for the 'Sting' operations setup by many
 JS>> county, state, and federal LEA's.

 MV> So you now say that the people caught in sting operations are put in
 MV> jail not for what they did, but for what they *could have done* when
 MV> allowed to remain free.

     They are arrested for what they are trying or conspiring to do based
on their own actions.

 MV> Well, what is stopping other countries from doing the same to gun
 MV> owners for what they could have done when allowed to remain free?

    Common sense and a more realitic view of the world.

 MV>>>  By the same token *you* may think the Dutch people are safe
 MV>>> from your action, but if the Dutch court rules otherwise then
 MV>>> you go to jail.

 JS>>      That would depend on me breaking a Dutch law on Dutch soil.

 MV> As I told you, you would be breakin our UAGL.

    And if I chose not to set foot on Dutch soil?

    Or are you going to try to force your Dutch laws on other countries? <g>

 MV>>>>> By that you commited sevarel crimes and they were directed
 MV>>>>> against Dutch citizens.

 JS>>>>      Only in your mind Michiel. Only in your mind.

 MV>>> Like Menno Blom's crimes only existed in your mind?

 JS>>     Hardly. Once AGAIN. The differance is that Blom broke a REAL
 JS>> US law and was REALLY arrested.

 MV> The only difference is that you are not arrested yet.

     What is the penalty for breaking imaginary laws again?

 JS>>  Versus your imaginary Dutch law which you change to suit your
 JS>> needs to try to prove a point.

 MV> As the US law is tuned to fit US needs.

     As with many laws they are amended to fit imagination of the
criminals. You do seem fixated on the US don't you Michiel.


 JS>>     Does that mean that the US could have a law that says that if
 JS>> someone enters the country and has ever jerked off that they
 JS>> could be arrested for sexual conduct?

 MV> Sure why not? What is stopping them?

 JS>>     We are headed down the road to stupidville Michiel. Might I
 JS>> suggest that we turn around and head back?

 MV> We were already deep into stupidville when the US made a law against
 MV> coming to the US with intent to have sex with a minor and  started
 MV> enforcing it through international sting operations.

     What international sting operation? A US law was violated and a suspect
was arrested on US soil. What is international about that? At any time did
members of the US LEA's goto the Netherlands to enforce US laws? Did they
make any arrests on Dutch soil? Did they involve the Dutch LEA's in the
enforcement of any US laws?

 JS>>>>>>     Although they are related, an arrest is based on action
 JS>>>>>> and not intent.

 MV>>>>> Right, the action was firing the gun.

 JS>>>>      But at who?

 MV>>> At who were Menno Blom's actions directed?

 JS>>     A 14 year old girl.

 MV> That did not exist.

     Please read for comprehendsion. Blom's attempts and actions in
trying to have sex with a minor child were and are illegal in the US.
You or I are not required to agree with the law. That IS the law for
which Blom was arrested, charged, and found guilty. I have the option
of trying to having the law changed if I think the law is unfair or
unjust. You are without options in the matter.

 JS>>  Remember, having, trying to have, conspiring to have sex with a
 JS>> minor in the US is illegal

 MV> Remenber that conspiring to use a gun against a person is illegal in
 MV> The Netherlands.

    If this is the best reponse you can come up with Michiel I see no point
to further discussion on the matter.

 JS>>     Section 2423 of title 18, United States Code, states the
 JS>> following:

 MV> Yeah, I know all about that silly law by now...

     Laws that help to protect children from being abused, exploited, or
sexually molested are not silly.

 MV>>> If Dutch law says coming to The Netherland while owning a gun
 MV>>> and confessing to having fired it, is proof of intent, then it
 MV>>> is proof of intent.

 JS>>     Intent to do what?

 MV> Killing or maiming a Dutch citizen.

     And how is that demonstrated by the owning of a gun? What particular
Dutchman was I threatening to kill or maim?

 JS>>     How many Dutchmen would be immediately arrestable because
 JS>> they had owned or ever fired a gun.

 MV> Every one having ever done so without having a licence. Licences for
 MV> guns are very hard to get and if given, only allow use under strict
 MV> conditions. Only police or military are allowed to carry guns in
 MV> public. And the latter only under state of emergency.

 JS>>>>      If I set foot on Dutch soil with the intent to shoot
 JS>>>> someone there and I either bring a gun or aquire a gun there.
 JS>>>> If I were arrested while acting out my intention then I should
 JS>>>> be arrested. Dutch law is Dutch law and should be applied
 JS>>>> equally and fairly to all.

 MV> And if the court rule that your intentis proven by your confession of
 MV> having owned and fired a gun, then you will be convicted.

     If such a law were to exist. The matter would be moot as I would be
aware of the law and avoid visiting the Netherlands.

     If Blom had be thinking with his big head instead of his little one
he would probably be a free man.

 MV>>> Of course it should apply to all. *Everyone* owning a gun
 MV>>> outside The Netherlands and confessing to having fired it will
 MV>>> be arrested when stepping on Dutch soil.

 JS>>      Me thinks the Dutch should build some REALLY, REALLY, REALLY
 JS>> big prisons over there then.

 MV> Like the US has done?

 MV> One in 75 American man are in jail. 1.3%. Higher than any other
 MV> country in the world.

     Yup... All them nasty guns and them kill hungry Americans. I figured
I would save you the trouble. <g>


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)