Text 16693, 113 rader
Skriven 2008-06-02 14:16:45 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 16297 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Casus belli
===================
Hello Robert,

On Wednesday May 28 2008 06:23, you wrote to me:

 MV>> How do you know they can not be talked to, if you flatly refuse to
 MV>> talk to them?

 RB> You have the tables turned the wrong way here, Michiel. Since when
 RB> have extremist groups like Hamas and al Quaida - or the Taliban for
 RB> that matter - signalized any willingness whatever to "talk"?

All the big ones - with the possible exception of Al Qaida - have at some point
willingness, some even eagerness, to engage in debate. The IRA has finally been
talked to and now they have formed a coalition goverment woith their former
anemies. Same for Hezbollah in Libanon. Tals with the ETA have not been
successfull so far unfortunaltely. Hamas is willing to talk, but it is /we/
that refuse to talk to them.

And they did win the election....

 RB> They scream they're going to drive you into the sea, they bomb and
 RB> shoot people whom they don't even personally know,

How does tyat differ from what we do to them? What is the difference bewteen
bombing someone form an airplane 10.000 feet high and bombing them from close
up from a car?

 RB>  much less suffer anything from - and when you _try_ to talk, they
 RB> either scream you down or worse.

When was the last time we tried to talk to Hamas or the Taliban?

The Taliban signalled willingness to talk wheb they offered to hand over Bin
Laden to The Hague. Tyey tried to talk. And then /we/ bombed /them/ to pieces
without listening to them. With the result that now there is no central
authority to talk to anymore. Sigh...

 RB> Your mistake is in assuming extremists _listen_. THEY want to talk -
 RB> but only to repeat their demands that you do eactly as they want - but
 RB> they have no interest whatever in listening to your side.

That goes for both sides. At first... You can not expect them to immidiateley
bow to all our wishes, we do not to that either.

The problem with us is that there are to few of us even willing to look at
things from their POV.

 MV>> Too late to isolate them, we have meddled too much and too long,
 MV>> and we can not eliminate them either.

 RB> You know, it seems to me you put this "I am guilty" sign on a chain
 RB> over your neck a little too readily.

Bob, we /are/ guilty. Not to all charges, but to some at least. And we will
never have peace if we are not willing to see that.

 MV>> "Eerwraak". Yes we have that here too. Of course it can not be
 MV>> tolerated. When they are here in our country they have to obey our
 MV>> rules. It has nothing to do with us intruding on *their* territory
 MV>> however.

 RB> All they have to do is tell us to go home and then they can drink
 RB> their oil instead of the champagne they buy with the money we give
 RB> them.

Would we go? Then what are we doing in Iraq?

 RB>>> That's the kind of people I'm talking about,

 MV>> It has been part of their culture fo centuries....

 RB> Who gives a shit? Then let them live where it's acceptable to beat up
 RB> women and children, and not here.

That has nothing to do with us invading on their territory.

 MV>> How is that going to help solve the Palestinian problem?

 RB> How is it going to stop global warming? Same difference.

The Palestinian problem is a naik in the coffin. The palestinians have a point.
Their land was taken. if we do not at least acknowledge that, we will never
have peace.

 RB> As for the so-called "Palastinian problem", it will go away the second
 RB> the screaming and waving of Kalashnikovs stops, and _reasonable_
 RB> people finally manage to talk to each other.

"reasonable"is not refuse to talk because they are on some Bush written
blacklist.

 RB> In other words, and the way things have gone since 1947, not in your
 RB> or my lifetime, and maybe not at all. Alone the geographical
 RB> separatuion of the West Bank and Gaza are deadly for any independent
 RB> Palastinian state

I agree. That is a serious problem. So let us try to solve it. Not by taken
away more land from the Palestinaians but by making some /reasonable/
compromise. A solution that is give and take for /both/.

 RB> Chances of that happening: how about "zero"?

It will not happen for a while because the most powerful nation in the world
unconditionally supports Israel, no matter what they do.

Taking away the land of the Palestinians to found the state of Israel was a
mistake. Refusing to compensate - even acknowledge - that mistake is our
failing, not that of the Palestinians.

Cheers, Michiel

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