Text 17639, 121 rader
Skriven 2008-06-10 15:32:12 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 17610 av Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
Ärende: Have fun with this one
==============================
Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday June 10 2008 at 09:23:

RB>> He need only present a birth certificate and request an American
RB>> passport.

WD> She ... :-)

Sorry, I overlooked that.

WD> It's an interesting topic. When reading about it I indeed discovered
WD> that US Citizenship can be requested by producing a birth certificate
WD> at anytime.

No, you can get a US passport that way, but the facts of birth establish your
citizenship. Most American citizens don't even have a passport, but are still
citizens.

WD> I would think in most countries that would be a little bit more
WD> complicated but, yes, I now read that a birth certicate is enough to
WD> get the "nationality" and where applicable "citizenship".

There is no difference between the two, and even a birth certificate is not
necessarily required to establish nationality, if there are witnesses such as
doctors in the hospital where you were born who can swear to you being born on
American soil (even an embassy, if I'm not wrong) or to at least one American
parent.

WD>>> And even the US doesn't permit people to possess dual-nationality.

RB>> Wrong and wrong.

WD> Indeed. I stand corrected. Amazing that it is still allowed there
WD> after 9-11. I would've honestly thought different.

Over time, most of the nationality restrictions have been relaxed. In the 70s
and 80s, a child born of foreign parents in the USA was required to "decide"
his/her nationality upon reaching maturity, either foreign OR American. Then
the inevitable happened, someone refused to "decide" and the US government
revoked the US citizenship. The case went to the Supreme Court, which decided
(doubtless thinking of the precedent the Nazis in Germany and the Communists in
the USSR had set of stripping "undesirables" of citizenship) that no American
citizen can be involuntarily stipped of his/her US citizenship.

Based on this decision, there was also no practical possibility of preventing
dual citizenchip, so this is also now tolerated by the USA. No country
"encourages" it, at least not to my knowledge, since it can lead to divided
loyalties and such nasty things as dual national visitors being drafted for
military service (a hot topic between the USA and Germany during the Vietnam
war, when some dual national German-Americans visiting the States were drafted
and sent to Vietnam).

I believe only a few countries have this principle that anyone born on their
soil is a citizen, and I can't say offhand which other ones there are. Most
other countries require that a citizen be born of at least one citizen (mother
or father, and as mentioned, in some countries only the father counts)

RB>> If I were to _voluntarily_ seek and receive the citizenship of
RB>> another country, the Germans would declare my German citizenship null
RB>> and void.

Which is true, but surprising in view of the Supreme Court decision above and
the fact that Nazi activities are regarded in the same light as blasphemy in
the middle ages in Germany. Possibly it would be interesting to lance a court
case right up to the EU court of human rights to decide this.

WD> Same with me here and I would forfeit a number of rights I do not
WD> exactly want to part with.

WD> Amazingly, in the meantime I also discovered that having US
WD> "nationality" does not equate having US "citizenship".

As far as I'm aware, it does. All I can do is cite the case of the son of a
Swiss couple I knew in graduate school in 1962-66. He was born of Swiss parents
in the USA (Boston) and has to this day a Swiss and an American passport.

I'm not familiar with the Supreme Court rulings you cite, but this is my own
experience.

My son was registered with the US Consulate in Hamburg after his birth, but
whether that was really necessary except to obtain a passport is an open
question. I didn't register him _at_ birth. And he is a dual national.

WD> It seems my daughter's friend's father and his family never requested
WD> permanent residence and that was the prohibiting factor for automatic
WD> citizenship.

All she has to do is to show up at a US consulate (depending on whether
consulates or embassies issue passports nowadays) with proper photos and her
birth cerficate, fill out an application and she will get a US passport. She
became a US citizen when she was born in DC.

WD> However, based on the birth certificate she can request it at any time
WD> but because of the "non-permanent nature" of the stay by the family it
WD> is not "automatic".

You may be confusing passports with citizenship. Citizenship is determined
everywhere by the facts of birth (location, parents).

WD> Apparently it is the same with children born on US soil to illegal
WD> immigrants. The "domicile and residence" rule is not fulfilled at the
WD> time of birth, but with a US birth certificate the child itself at a
WD> later age can request citizenship if it was born in one of the 50
WD> states.

Again no. Such a child is a citizen at birth, and although the parents may be
illegals that has nothing to do with the child's citizenship. The parents can
be deported, but the child can't, as it's a citizen. Sounds crazy, but to my
knowledge, this is US law.

WD> Fascinating reading ... someone of course will now attack me for
WD> placing a wrong comma somewhere.

No, most of what you write is correct, just the parts about "nationality" and
"citizenship" being different and a residence requirement are not right. Either
you are born an American by birth on American soil OR if at least one of your
parents was American, OR you must become an American by naturalization.

Cheers, Bob

--- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
 * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)