Text 20494, 182 rader
Skriven 2008-09-07 01:24:04 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 20487 av David Drummond (3:640/305)
Ärende: Echotag Madness
=======================
Hello David.

06 Sep 08 07:50, you wrote to me:

 DD> Jeff Smith -> David Drummond wrote:

 DD>>> Right after it mentions that all things in Policy must be
 DD>>> followed word for word blindly without any conscious thought
 DD>>> what-so-ever. Did you miss it? [...]

 JS>>     It is clear that you choose to read Fidonet policy with the
 JS>> attitude that it is up to reader to decide if any part of the
 JS>> document should apply to them.

 DD> Should the "rules" about RCs apply to those who are not RCs? Of course
 DD> we have to decide what parts apply to us as individuals.

     Policy 4 applies to *C's as well as nodelisted sysop's.


 JS>> Somehow you seem to think that will work. Given the chance
 JS>> people will usually decide that it doesn't apply to them. But
 JS>> that does or should apply to the other guy.

 DD> Have I ever suggested that YOU should be obeying some rule that I
 DD> decline to? That does seem to be something that some of you do
 DD> however.

    No... You seem to think that everything will work ok without rules
or policies.


 JS>>     Policy 4 was created for a reason David. It was IMO created
 JS>> as a set of policies and procedures to follow to maintain and
 JS>> manage Fidonet.

 DD> Policy was created because certain persons, not unlike yourself,
 DD> cannot believe that life should be lived without draconian rules to
 DD> kontrol everything we do.

    To dictate? No. To define a set of policies and procedures regarding
the operation and maintenance is something quite less "Draconian". You
are again exagerating the matter to help support your claim. Policy 4
is not a set of draconian laws that dictate how Fidonet should be run.
Policy 4 is a rather outdated set of policies that define what our
hobby is and ho it operates.


 DD> It also needed to list the technical requirements actually necessary
 DD> for the various mailers to actually establish sessions.

    Which is in serious need of updating. Although the FTSC also needs
updating too to take in account the technology of today. I will not
hold my breath about either happening anytime soon.

 DD> For a culture that goes on so much about "freedom", and "no-one tells
 DD> us what to do" you sure do push the KONTROL factor in all walks of
 DD> life a lot.

     "You" as in me as an individual or a member of a culture? Freedom
IS an important part of the American culture.

     As far as control is concerned. Control is simply a logical requirement
for network such as Fidonet. What would Fidonet have ever amounted to if
there was never a set of policies or definitions to help make it's operation
possible. You seem to see a potential conspiracy or control freak around
every corner.

 DD>  Or is it as you say, those rules only apply to the other
 DD> guys?

    As I have always stressed David. Rules, laws, policies, Etc. should
be applied to everyone equally and as fairly as possible.

 JS>> What effect do you think there would be if we all treated P4 as
 JS>> optional?

 DD> It already is optional.

     Yes, you have alredy stated that you look at P4 as optional.

 DD> Those who choose not to adhere by the technical requirements don't
 DD> manage to connect to the network - all else is up to individual
 DD> choice. [...]
 DD>>> Do you consider the word "policy" to be synonymous with the word
 DD>>> "law"? I understand it as " a course of action to be pursued".
 DD>>> No mention is made of catching...

 JS>>     I look at P4 as a set of policies and procedures to follow to
 JS>> maintain Fidonet. A set of policies that to be effective need to
 JS>> be applied fairly and equally to all members of this network.

 DD> Fidonet is a "network of mailers". The only policies required are the
 DD> technical ones explaining how to connect our mailers together and
 DD> transact messages.

    Wrong David. Fidonet is a group of SysOp's defined by a nodelist that
use mailers to transfer mail. Policy applies to more than simply the
technical transfer of mail.

    Got to remember David. This isn't the world according to Drummond.

 DD> The social rules have been added by kontrol freaks who just cannot
 DD> abide other people having any freedom at all. [...]

    The "Social rules" are needed because Fidonet is a group of people
and not just a group of mailers. Did you as a person join Fidonet or
did your mailer?


 JS>>>>      Think about it David. Take this Fidonet hobby. Add to it
 JS>>>> thousands of people from many different nations and cultures.

 DD>>> Thousands??? Are you in the same Fidonet that I'm connecting to?

 JS>>     I would imagine. Currently there are about 4600 nodes in this
 JS>> particular Fidonet. Which would still (For awhile yet) constitute
 JS>> thousands.

 DD> How many is your system directly connecting with? Any rules you
 DD> require are between you and those you connect to.

    Wrong again. My system is capable of connecting with most (I imagine)
nodelisted systems in Fidonet. Policy and the nodelist specify both the
technical and social rules to make that connection possible.

 DD> Many of your 4600 nodes are ghosts - retained in the nodelist because
 DD> it gives some kontrol freak a feeling of power.

    Get a grip David. Didn't you know that a prerequisite of being in
Fidonet was to be a power hungry control freak?


 DD> [...]
 DD>>> Fidonet IS an anarchy! Those who choose not to conform (with
 DD>>> regards to technical connectivity) don't connect. All else is
 DD>>> fair game.

 JS>>      And why do you suppose Fidonet has/is become an anarchy?
 JS>> Could it in part be the attitude of some that everything is "Fair
 JS>> game"?

 DD> It WAS an anarchy when it was invented by Tom Jennings - then the
 DD> kontrol freaks in Z1 subverted it.

    Ah yes. Them damn people in Z1. Was wondering when you would be
getting around to zones.

 DD> Now it has returned to its glorious roots.

    Ahh yes, the sweet anarchy.

 DD> [...]
 DD>>> Policy is NOT law. If it was it would have been called "Fidonet
 DD>>> Law". It wasn't, it was called "Policy".

 JS>>       As a voluntary member of Fidonet. Fidonet policy to be
 JS>> effective needs to be apply to all members. We can continue to
 JS>> argue what name we choose to call it David. Again, it is what it
 JS>> is. A set of policies/rules/ procedures to manage this network.
 JS>> It is a document that helps define this network.

 DD> We are no more "members" of Fidonet that we are "members" of the
 DD> Internet. Both are just technologies for communication.

     That may be true in your view of the world. The internet is a
medium for the transfer of data just as POTS was years ago. Fidonet is
a group of people who use the internet or POTS to transfer data.

 DD> --

 DD> regards

 DD> David

 DD> ---
 DD>  * Origin: 27S29'21.34"  153E7'34.96" (3:640/305)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)