Text 21320, 133 rader
Skriven 2008-09-27 22:49:11 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Languages
=================
Hello Bob,

On Saturday September 27 2008 12:20, you wrote to me:

 MV>>>> and *I* say German and Dutch are very different languages.

 RB>>> They are, but are closely related.

 MV>> That depends on your definition of "close". German and Dutch
 MV>> certainly are not as close as Dutch and Suid Afrikaans, and even
 MV>> the latter can not be understood without some exposure.

 RB> However, they are basically the same language, like American and
 RB> British English.

Dutch and Flemish are basically the same language. Dutch and Suid Afrikaans
have common roots, but they are not the same language.  Not any more

 RB> Don't forget the original settlers in South Africa, the so-called
 RB> Boers, were Dutch. Afrikaans is just a localized version of archaic
 RB> Dutch

It has evolved on its own and only half the original settlers were Dutch, the
other half was Brittish. And then there were other influences.

The conservatives hate to admit it and I guess it takes an outsider to see it,
but there is a LOT of English influence in Suid Afrikaans:

English       Suid Afrikaans     Dutch

car           kar                auto
engine        enjin              motor
petrol        petrol             benzine
clutch        kluts              koppeling
elevator      hijser             lift
runway        renpad             startbaan
subway        moltrein           metro


 RB> and shouldn't be impossible for a modern Dutchman to understand at
 RB> least passably.

I can tell you from personal experience that when they start talking among each
other, you don't  understand a word. well, you may pick up a few isolated
words, but you have no idea about the context. It takes time and exposure to
learn it.

It really is a different language. They use words that are familiar , but they
may mean something totally different, sometimes even the oposite of what you
expect.

 MV>> A Dutchman who has never been exposed to German wil *not*
 MV>> understand it.

 RB> At all? And it will not even sound familiar?

Familiar does not cut it. No, he wil not understand it.

 RB> I have difficulty believing that, as I encountered Dutch for the first
 RB> time when even my German was not that good.

German *not* being your native language may have put you at an advantage.

 MV>> The other way around will be easier.

 RB> Why?

I meant it willbe easier to find a German witout previous exposure to Dutch
than the other way around.

 MV>> There are also differences and these differences make German a
 MV>> language that is hard to master for the Dutch. Understanding is
 MV>> not too hard, but correctly speaking or writing is hard. The main
 MV>> problem are these cases. English is much easier for a Dutchman.

 RB> I would think it's not so much the cases as the genders. There are
 RB> three in German, and even I make mistakes sometimes after more than 40
 RB> years of experience.

We have three genders in Dutch as well. And although it many instances it
collapses to two (neutral and male|female) there is not much difference in that
respect. No, it is the cases that are the killer. I never really understood
even the very concept.

 RB>  The cases (grammar) were what really clobbered me
 RB> in French... even today, my French is lousy for just that reason.
 RB> German grammar is easier, at least for me.

The problem with German is that at first glance it looks like German. That may
decieve the observer into thinking it is easy. But when one takes a closer
look, one finds that it is not as close as it looks at first sight, On the
contrary.

It is like a car with the pedals reversed. It looks like an normal car, but try
to drive it. Clutch with the right foot and accelerator with the left. Someone
who never drove a car, will have no problem with it as such. It is all new to
him/her. But for you and me such a car will be almost impossible to drive. The
reflexes are too deply ingrained in the system. Even driving an automatic with
a wide brake pedal that can be used with both the left and right foot is hard
enough for someone who is used to a three pedal car with a shift stick.

 MV>> To an outsider it may "sound" similar, but then to me Russian,
 MV>> Polish and Czjech soud the same too. So do Chinese and Japanese.

 RB> Russian, Polish and Czech are all slavic languages, Michael, and also
 RB> have similar roots.

That does not mean they are in any way similar, nor that a native Russian can
understand Polish or Czech without previous exposure.

 MV>> Dutch and German may have common roots, but don't let that fool
 MV>> you into thinking that they are all that close.

 RB> As you remarked, it's a question of what you consider "close". Compare
 RB> Spanish, Italian and French sometime and I think you'll be surprised
 RB> at the similarities.

See the analogy of the car. Very similar but almost impossible to drive.

 MV>> I can not rule out that that professor friend of Roy understands
 MV>> Dutch, but then that is because he studied it. A native German -
 MV>> and certainly not a German living in the US - will not understand
 MV>> Dutch without previous exposure.

 RB> I tend to agree, but let's let Roy explain if he cares to.

Roy never explains, he just presents his claims as fact and then when say you
do not believe him, reverts to personal attacks.

Cheers, Michiel

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