Text 21978, 142 rader
Skriven 2008-10-16 09:14:12 av Ross Cassell (1:123/456)
  Kommentar till text 21972 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Socialism in the US of A
================================
Hello Michiel!

16 Oct 08 14:23, you wrote to me:

 RC>> Gitmo was leased to the US by the (then) Govt of Cuba, at the
 RC>> time, we pay them for the usage of that territory,

 MV> When was the last time the rent was actually paid? How much was paid?
 MV> In what?

n December 1903, the United States leased the 45 square miles of land and water
for use as a coaling station. A treaty reaffirmed the lease in 1934 granting
Cuba and her trading partners free access through the bay, payment of $2,000 in
gold per year, equating to $4,085 today, and a requirement that both the U.S.
and Cuba must mutually consent to terminate the lease.

 MV> What if Cuba wants to terminate the "lease"? What if the politeley
 MV> asked you to leave? Would you go?

I believe they wanted us gone since Fidel took control in their revolution.

 RC>> Unlike Gibraltar or Hong Kong, Gitmo was not seized as a
 RC>> possession.

 MV> Oh, cm'on Ross, Guantanomo Bay is de factor occupied territory.

and what is Aruba?

 RC>> I should have known, since Socialism is so interwoven in your
 RC>> society.

 MV> You should get rid of that narrow minded view that there is something
 MV> inherently wrong with socialism. Not everyone in the world believes
 MV> that the US role model is the Nirwana. Live with it.

The Govt is mother, the Govt is father, yes sir...

 RC>> and yet, the Taiwanese have led lives, many for as long as you
 RC>> and I have been alive, all of their lives, why would they
 RC>> surrender that,

 MV> Why can you only see it in terms of "surrender"? Dis the East Germans
 MV> "surrender" their way of life when Germany re-united? Did the West
 MV> Germans "surrender"their way of life?

When the Iron Curtain collapsed most East Germans craved a life their brothers
enjoyed in the West, so they chose reunification.

Maybe you can explain why so many of them tried to flee the DDR throughout its
existence if the DDR was so heavenly?

Why was the Berlin Wall erected, why was the frontier between East and West so
heavily guarded by the east, why was the East shooting its citizens whom tried
to flee?

 RC>> unless reunification meant that mainland China would become like
 RC>> them?

 MV> Why is it that you can only think in terms of "them becoming like us"?
 MV> Think out of the box. Do you really consider iot totally unthinkable
 MV> that under some circumstances it might be to our advantage "to become
 MV> like them"

If your point of view had any correctness to it, they would have reunified by
now..

 RC>> Do I have to remind you of mainland China's human rights
 RC>> difficulties?

 MV> Do I have to remind you of the USA's human rights diffuculties? In
 MV> case you forgot: "Abu Graib"...

Diversion..

 MV> No country is perfect. Does not mean people can not be happy and live
 MV> meaningful lives.

So on your say so, the Taiwanese should just give up and accept a life they
would not ordinarily choose?

 MV> Yes, export is a relevant factor in China's economie. But vialble
 MV> economies without export are perfectly possible. Look at Switezerland.
 MV> What do they export? Cookoo clocks and chocolat. Are the Swiss
 MV> undeduacted people who live in poverty? C'mon...

You are being stupid.

 MV>>> Lots of stuff around here made in China.... True..

 RC>> and why not in the Nederlands or other places in at least the EU?

 MV> Thers is also lots of stuff around that is made in the EU.

Isnt Nokia a finnish cellphone company, how many of their cellphones actually
are manufactured in Finland or Europe?

At some point in the future, this may all change if the economic success that
China is enjoying manages to filter down to their workforce in the form of
higher wages etc.

 RC>>>> China exports to more countries than just the USA.
 MV>>> Exactly. They do not depend on the US for their exports.

 RC>> We are their biggest customer..

 MV> I doubt that, but even if it is so,

Top Countries China Exports To (In billions USD)

    * United States = $162.9 (+30%)
    * Hong Kong = $124.5 (+23%)
    * Japan = $84 (+14%)
    * South Korea = $35.1 (+26%)
    * Germany = $32.5 (+37%)
    * Netherlands = $25.9 (+40%)
    * United Kingdom = $19 (+27%)
    * Singapore = $16.6 (+31%)
    * Taiwan = $16.6 (+22%)
    * Russia = $13.2 (+45%

We are their biggest customer because of our consumer driven economy.

I have seen the documentaries done on shipping container ships..

Next time you visit Rotterdam, watch where the container ships are coming from.

Most of China's ships use the Port Of Los Angeles or Long Beach.

 MV>  what makes you think they will go
 MV> on forever with filling your shelves in return for what is Monopoly
 MV> money?

Because they are receiving monies that are infused into their economy.


==
Ross
Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader: http://www.easternstar.info
E-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Blogs/Other Places: http://links.cassell.us
... President Obama will teach all of us on how to be on welfare.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
 * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)