Text 23745, 144 rader
Skriven 2008-11-13 15:46:22 av Lee Lofaso (3:800/432.0)
  Kommentar till text 23726 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Constitutions
=====================
Hello Robert,

"...the new Reich must again set itself on the march along the road
of the Teutonic Knights of old, to obtain by the German sword sod for
the German plow and daily bread for the nation."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 153-54.

RB>[The German constitution = Grundgesetz]

>LL>We wrote it. The Germans adopted it. And then we imposed it on all of
>LL>Germany, including the eastern part. And Germans cheered.
>RB>What bullshit, all three sentences.
>LL>Is it?
RB>Are you joking or is that simple ignorance?

It was a military occupation of Germany.  And it was not the
German military which was in charge.

The idea for the Basic Law came from the three occupying powers.
Allies approved the German written constitution in May 1949.  Then,
on May 5, 1955, the Allied High Commission was dissolved.

Read the Preamble, Article 23, and Artile 146.
The Allied Military Governors of the western zones approved the draft
on May 12, 1949, and submitted it for ratification by the Land
governments.  It was then adopted by all (except Bavaria - which chose
to go by majority rule) on May 23, 1949.

RB>Even the claim that the Germans adopted it is not quite what you
RB>imply.

It's not as if they had a choice.  Not a real one, anyway.

RB>There was never a plebiscite on the Grundgesetz - it was simply
RB>placed in force when the Federal Republic of Germany was founded
RB>in 1949.

Germany was occupied by foreign powers, and continued to be occupied
by foreign powers afterwards.

RB>As far as cheering is concerned, that happened
RB>earlier, in 1948, when the meanwhile worthless Reichmark
RB>was withdrawn and the new Deutsche Mark introduced -
RB>whereupon goods suddenly appeared in the stores and money
RB>was again worth something.

Yeah?  The Russians were not nearly so cheerful.  Especially in
regards to use of the currency in Berlin.

>RB>A German committee drafted the constitution, which was then adopted
>RB>by the US, French and British zones and the Federal Republic of
>RB>Germany established.
>LL>An Iraqi committee drafted the constitution, which was then adopted by
>LL>the US, and the post-Hussein Republic of Iraq established.
RB>Who cares about Iraq? The subject was Germany.

Iraq is occupied by foreign powers, namely the USA.
Germany was occupied by foreign powers, namely the USA, France,
Britain and former USSR.  But mainly the USA and former USSR.

>LL>What matters is that Germany was an occupied country.
RB>The German Grundgesetz was NOT! imposed, and certainly not
RB>by the Americans.

Then why did the German people need the approval of the Allied
Military Governors of the western zones for the draft law to be
submitted for ratification?  Why was the Allied High Commission
not dissolved until 1955?  Why was NATO created?

RB>If it had been, we certainly wouldn't have a parliamentary system
RB>with a "State Chamber" as we do, but some kind of a two-house
RB>congress like in the States. The system here is different from that
RB>in the States, Britain _and_ France, as it was drafted by _Germans_.

Germany has never been a truly democratic country.  Not even today.
The system used following WWII may have been technically drafted by
Germans, but the real masters were the Allied Powers who occupied
Germany, namely the USA (Russians had their own version in the
eastern part of Germany, which was much different than the other
Allied Powers had in mind).

>LL>Have you ever read the German constitution?
RB>Yes, and in the original German, which I doubt you have.

The German constitution is online for all to see - in both
the original German as well as translation into English.

>RB>As for the "cheering", people were more interested in getting
>RB>something to eat and keeping warm at that time.
>LL>The German people looked upon themselves as being one people. Not a
>LL>divided people, consisting of two separate countries.
RB>True in the west, but by no means in the east. The GDR
RB>_vehemently_ rejected the idea that it was not an
RB>independent country, but only part of a Germanic whole.

The communist government of the eastern part of Germany was not
recognized by the free government of the western part of Germany.
However, the free government of the western part of Germany did
recognize all of the people of Germany (both east and west) as
being the German people.  Re: Preamble, Article 23, Article 146

>LL>Naturally, survival was a priority.  But so was getting rid of an
>LL>occupying power.
RB>Bullshit. Ever hear of the Berlin airlift? You can bet your
RB>booties that the Berliners most certainly did NOT want to
RB>get rid of the western "occupying powers". And elsewhere,
RB>communities were begging the western allies not to close
RB>bases, fearing economic disruption of the various regions.

The German people did not want any foreign power occupying their
country.  No Americans.  No French.  No Britons.  No Russians.
During the Berlin airlift Berliners had to choose between the
lesser of two evils.  Better to eat, even while under the yoke
of a foreign occupying power, than not to eat while under the
yoke of a foreign occupying power.

RB>You're confusing Iraq with Germany, and the two are simply
RB>not comparable.

Partition does not work.
It did not work in Germany.
It did not work in Vietnam.
It does not work in Palestine.
It does not work in India/Pakistan.
It does not work in Ireland.
It does not work in Korea.
It will not work in Iraq.

Germans, both in the east and in the west, are the same people.
Just as Vietnamese, both in the north and in the south, are the
same people.  And Koreans, both in the north and in the south.
No peoples, no matter who they are, like to be under the yoke
of a foreign occupation.
Especially a foreign military occupation.

That is a lesson the South learned all too well at the hands
of its Yankee oppressors.
--Lee


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