Text 24098, 106 rader
Skriven 2008-11-25 09:10:30 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 24084 av Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
Ärende: Majorities
==================
Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday November 24 2008 at 22:46:

WD>>> Actually ... most of our voting is done electronically...

RB>> So _that's_ why there's such a problem getting a government in
RB>> place... forget recounts, forget checks of voters - nothing possible.

WD> Why need a recount? A "1" is a "1" and a "0" is a "0" ...

Now all you have to do is verify the count in case of a dispouted/close
election. Aside from which, are Belgian elections always a clear "yes" or "no",
rather than a choice among various people and parties?

WD> The votes itself are recorded on a credit-card sized card with
WD> magnetic strip...

[...]

WD> This isn't rocket-science Bob.

Not for you, not for me - although we might have some doubts if the electronic
voting system is intransparent, i.e. uses proprietary software (think Nedap).

But now think about the old lady who takes her dog for a walk every morning in
your street and doesn't even know what a computer is. For her and people like
her, this _is_ rocket science.

You have to look at the average person, not educated, computer-savvy people
like those here in fido.

WD> Ever since this system is in place not a single recount had to be
WD> performed.

Because none is possible. Either you believe the computer or you can forget a
recount. Running the results through the same computer a thousand times won't
give you any different answer - a manual recount, here impossible, might.

WD> Yes, recounts are possible because the magnetic cards are retained.

Run a magnet over them and your recount is garbage. A recount means looking at
human-readable ballots to see who someone voted for.

WD> But what would be the result of a recount? No chance for "pregnant
WD> chads" or counters having to guess voter intent. A "1" is a "1" and a
WD> "0" is still a "0".

Unless you use a magnet on the cards and then the result is ???

RB>> The winner is determined by Nedap - or by the Belgian equivalent of
RB>> the Chaos Computer Club.

WD> That's a hoax and a fairytale.

Obviously you haven't kept up with the news. But believe what you want to.

WD> In all the years it has been used there hasn't been a single case of
WD> fraud, neither have there been complaints, neither have there been
WD> recounts requested.

As to the latter, no wonder. As to the first claim, how would you prove fraud?
As to the second, Belgians are obviously more inclined to believe claims by
politicians and voting machine manufacturers than others.

WD> The only issue has to do with elderly people who cannot understand the
WD> procedure. For them paper-voting is available but it is hardly ever
WD> requested. During the last election in my town of Mortsel with some
WD> 10.000 eligible voters not a single paper ballot was entered.

Presumably it's such a hassle to get a human-readable ballot, and people who
ask for one are looked on with such distain, that most who have such problems
simply stay at home or try to vote as best they can.

WD> I know people need to make fun of Belgians and the language issues and
WD> consider us dumb ... but electronic voting has worked here for quite
WD> some time. This is not a banana-republic.

Of course not, but if the software used in the voting machines is proprietary -
not open source, subject to review - you certainly invest a lot of belief in a
system you are not allowed to examine.

WD> So it didn't work in the Netherlands ... well, they're real smart
WD> there ... so smart they got someone like Balkenende elected which got
WD> them involved in Iraq with no vote of confidence to dislodge him.

Which has what to do with electronic voting? In Germany there's no provision
for a vote of confidence either, but there's something called a "constructive
vote of no confidence" that Kohl used to become Chancellor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_vote_of_no_confidence

WD> I prefer our own rather innocent squibling about language politics. So
WD> far nobody has died from it ... it's only boring, not lethal.

This is a little like the running battle here in the echo, with the Euros
criticizing the Americans and saying they understand the situation better
because they can observe dispassionately from a distance, and the Americans
ctitizing the Euros and saying that they have no idea of what really goes on in
_their_ (USA) country.

The news we in Germany get from Belgium is not that there is sweetness and
light between the Flemish and the Walloons.

Cheers, Bob

--- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
 * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)