Text 34332, 166 rader
Skriven 2009-07-07 08:11:16 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 34326 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Hydrogen
================
07 Jul 09 09:09, Robert Bashe wrote to Roy Witt:

 RB> Roy Witt wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday July 06 2009 at 12:05:

 RW>> "Car and Driver.com

 RB> Instead of quoting pages of text, it would make things easier to just
 RB> quote the essence. But in this case there was no "essence" except:

It's my perogative to do so and yours to ignore, If you wish. I see that
you didn't.

 RW>> And the people who know these things are also the people who build
 RW>> the systems.

 RB> And another page-long quote with the essence:

 RW>> Training Required

 RB> ...with regard to fueling the car with hydrogen...

Training was required when you first learned how to put gasoline in your
Model T. Back in those days, there were no electric pumps, you cranked a
pump by hand, which filled a tank at the top and then switched a valve and
let gravity drain the tank into your Model T...

 RW>> A Multi-Step Process

 RB> ...with regard to convenience...

I notice that you skipped over the part where the link and the fueling
hose are being made into one. I suspect with the technology of today, that
will be as convenient as it is with gasoline. Best part is you won't smell
like gas when you're done.

 RW>> All of this sounds complicated, but in practice, it only requires
 RW>> one extra step-connecting the communicator-compared with filling up
 RW>> a car with gas or diesel. Once we became familiar with it, the
 RW>> process wound up taking maybe 30 seconds longer than inserting a
 RW>> credit card,

 RB> ... for people who use computers on a day-to-day basis and are
 RB> familiar with technical things...

Every body can learn how to do it. It's not so complicated that a 16yo or
an 80yo couldn't learn it.

 RW>> Now, at this point, just how long you get to sit back and relax
 RW>> after connecting everything depends on a few things: how much
 RW>> pressure the vehicle's tank is designed to handle-the Equinox's can
 RW>> handle up to 10,000 psi, and the FCX Clarity's takes 5000 psi-and
 RW>> the type of pump you've pulled up to.

 RB> ...which only confirms the pressures I mentioned...

No biggy.

 RW>> At this point, refueling can take anywhere between five minutes and
 RW>> an eternity.

 RB> ...which is naturally an "advantage" to the normal driver...

An 'advantage' for the driver who wants a clean car that won't bother them
one bit.

 RW>> Sadly, in our test car, we watched the distance-to-empty readout in
 RW>> the gauge cluster plummet faster than GM's recent stock prices when
 RW>> we climbed hills or suffered through L.A.'s infamous traffic jams.

 RB> ...demonstrating how "practical" such things are even in short-run,
 RB> big city environments...

This is why the Equinox is a 'test' vehicle not sold to the public. When
the bugs are worked out, as the article says, they'll help to improve the
product.

 RW>> Unlike gas, hydrogen for fuel-cell purposes might not have to be
 RW>> shipped or trucked in but rather is captured and packaged on site,
 RW>> extracted from the station's supply of water (as is the case with
 RW>> the West L.A. station) or from natural gas.

 RB> ...Layman's language for cracking, electrolysis or reforming...

Still done on site in spite of what you've said about it not being
possible.

 RW>> The equipment required for this, of course, is not cheap for station
 RW>> owners, with costs ranging between $500,000 and $5,000,000 per
 RW>> installation.

 RB> ...which is the _real_ nitty-gritty... who pays? ...

This is why the cars aren't sold, but leased. The manufacturer pays, but
not as much as government subsidies do. Japanese manufacturers have the
money to back them. Even Toyota has announced a hydrogen car by 2014.

 RW>> But beyond these initial efforts, many of which are the result of
 RW>> local government initiatives (read "heavily subsidized"), we don't
 RW>> expect the hydrogen infrastructure to spread much farther, at least
 RW>> not until fuel-cell vehicles themselves become available in
 RW>> significant numbers and a market price for hydrogen is established.

 RB> ...oh, yes: "heavily subsidized"...

Just think, one or two of your tax dollars might be going toward
developing this technology.

 RW>>>> There's no liquid hydrogen storage involved in this program, yet.

 RB>>> The information I found was different, but I'll take your word for
 RB>>> that.

 RW>> You don't have to. If you've read the above article, you already
 RW>> know that the Shell station I mentioned and the one in the article
 RW>> are one and the same...

 RB> ... do I? Sorry, Roy, I'm still not a mindreader, but thanks for the
 RB> information.

The article told you it was...I guess you incomprehensive reading habits
are still with you.

 RW>> ... and is producing hydrogen gas on the spot and not a liquid.

 RB> Presumably by electrolysis, compressing it and then waiting for a
 RB> customer, as I already mentioned. Not by any means the "generate as
 RB> you wait" operation you described, and not just "snapping your
 RB> fingers" at a glass of water, which proceeds to dissolve into
 RB> Hydrogen and oxygen.

Non the less, it's being done in spite of your skeptism.

 RW>>>> Yeup...living in the dark ages alright.

 RB>>> OK, then you tell me what you're thinking of, since this was the
 RB>>> alternative mentioned to tanks of hydrogen on site. If you have
 RB>>> some "secret", out with it or stop the hinting without anything to
 RB>>> back it up.

 RW>> See above.

 RB> Nothing there except for laymen's descriptions of cracking,
 RB> electrolysis and reforming. Nothing new for me, maybe for you.

 RB> Roy, I accept your enthusiasm, but don't get carried away. The
 RB> generation, transportation and storage problems are real and won't
 RB> disappear by just wishing - and there is still the safety question,
 RB> which I would consider a major factor once these vehicles are common
 RB> enough (if that ever is the case) to be involved in crashes like the
 RB> "Unsafe at Any Speed" Corvair. Maybe you aren't worried, but I don't
 RB> want to be in a vehicle with a hydrogen tank under 700 bar pressure
 RB> when some SUV rams it from behind.

 RB> Cheers, Bob

 RB> --- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
 RB>  * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)


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