Text 35752, 84 rader
Skriven 2009-09-07 19:17:14 av Ross Cassell (1:123/456)
  Kommentar till text 35749 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: "Social Security"
=========================
Hello Michiel!

08 Sep 09 00:21, you wrote to me:

 RC>> But may not have averted the seeds that gave rise to Hitler and
 RC>> the Nazi's, chances are the European Victors would still have
 RC>> imposed a treaty as harsh as the one they did, given the
 RC>> bloodshed and destruction that had already taken place.

 MV> Unlikely as the vitory would not have been that overwhelming. WWI
 MV> would have ended in a negotiated thruth with germany at a much better
 MV> position and hence not be doomed to poverty.

It was the European Victors whom put the teeth in that treaty to begin with.

We will never know how it could have turned out.

The notion of Germany trying to prod Mexico into attacking us, kinda pissed
Wilson off. <G>

 RC>> I dont want to incite Michiel here, but there was no coherent
 RC>> allied military presence on mainland Europe, to be as minimalist
 RC>> as possible, we did help make D-day possible.

 MV> D-day came much too late to make any real difference. Hitler had
 MV> already lost in 1942.

Pfffft..

Without D-day, just how on Earth would the Allies gotten a foothold on Mainland
Europe?

Getting a foothold on Mainland Europe forced Germany to fight a war on 2
fronts.

and you know darn well that once the allies advanced past Paris, it was no real
cakewalk until they crossed the Rhine.

 RC>> and it is extremely plausible that had we stayed out, that any
 RC>> eventuality of a German defeat would have included the Iron
 RC>> Curtain being located further west than it ended up being.

 MV> Had you stayed out, there would have been no bombs thrown on Japan and
 MV> hence no nuclear arms race -> no cold war, no iron curtain.

Remember the Manhatten Project was started to thwart or balance out Germanies
program and that was at the urging of Albert Einstein, much to his later
chagrin. It was thought that any bomb developed would have had to have been
used against Germany.

However it became evident that Germany was being eroded by the western and
moreso eastern fronts.

Had we stayed out of WW2, you would be speaking German or more likely, Russian.

But if you want to say "if"....

If Britain not settled the new world, no USA.. Too late..

 RC>> Another plausibility is that without D-Day, Germany could have
 RC>> had the resources to focus on vanquishing the Soviets and well,
 RC>> you do the math.

 MV> No chance of that. Germany was already defeated by the Russians after
 MV> the battle of Stalingrad. They had run out of resources and the
 MV> ultimate defeat was just a matter of time.

How far west would you have preferred the Iron Curtain?

You can argue the existence of a cold war all you want and blame whoever all
you want, but you cannot argue the fact that had Germanies defeat had happened
solely at the hands of the Soviets that Stalin would have been content to have
stopped where he did, France and the Netherlands would have had a birds eye
view of the Curtain. You got to ask yourself, why didnt the Soviets let Poland,
The Balkan states, Hungary regain sovereignty?

==
Ross
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