Tillbaka till svenska Fidonet
English   Information   Debug  
ENET.POLITICS   0/4
ENET.SOFT   0/11701
ENET.SYSOP   33903
ENET.TALKS   0/32
ENGLISH_TUTOR   0/2000
EVOLUTION   0/1335
FDECHO   0/217
FDN_ANNOUNCE   0/7068
FIDONEWS   24125
FIDONEWS_OLD1   0/49742
FIDONEWS_OLD2   2162/35949
FIDONEWS_OLD3   0/30874
FIDONEWS_OLD4   0/37224
FIDO_SYSOP   12852
FIDO_UTIL   0/180
FILEFIND   0/209
FILEGATE   0/212
FILM   0/18
FNEWS_PUBLISH   4408
FN_SYSOP   41678
FN_SYSOP_OLD1   71952
FTP_FIDO   0/2
FTSC_PUBLIC   0/13599
FUNNY   0/4886
GENEALOGY.EUR   0/71
GET_INFO   105
GOLDED   0/408
HAM   0/16070
HOLYSMOKE   0/6791
HOT_SITES   0/1
HTMLEDIT   0/71
HUB203   466
HUB_100   264
HUB_400   39
HUMOR   0/29
IC   0/2851
INTERNET   0/424
INTERUSER   0/3
IP_CONNECT   719
JAMNNTPD   0/233
JAMTLAND   0/47
KATTY_KORNER   0/41
LAN   0/16
LINUX-USER   0/19
LINUXHELP   0/1155
LINUX   0/22092
LINUX_BBS   0/957
mail   18.68
mail_fore_ok   249
MENSA   0/341
MODERATOR   0/102
MONTE   0/992
MOSCOW_OKLAHOMA   0/1245
MUFFIN   0/783
MUSIC   0/321
N203_STAT   926
N203_SYSCHAT   313
NET203   321
NET204   69
NET_DEV   0/10
NORD.ADMIN   0/101
NORD.CHAT   0/2572
NORD.FIDONET   189
NORD.HARDWARE   0/28
NORD.KULTUR   0/114
NORD.PROG   0/32
NORD.SOFTWARE   0/88
NORD.TEKNIK   0/58
NORD   0/453
OCCULT_CHAT   0/93
OS2BBS   0/787
OS2DOSBBS   0/580
OS2HW   0/42
OS2INET   0/37
OS2LAN   0/134
OS2PROG   0/36
OS2REXX   0/113
OS2USER-L   207
OS2   0/4786
OSDEBATE   0/18996
PASCAL   0/490
PERL   0/457
PHP   0/45
POINTS   0/405
POLITICS   0/29554
POL_INC   0/14731
PSION   103
R20_ADMIN   1121
R20_AMATORRADIO   0/2
R20_BEST_OF_FIDONET   13
R20_CHAT   0/893
R20_DEPP   0/3
R20_DEV   399
R20_ECHO2   1379
R20_ECHOPRES   0/35
R20_ESTAT   0/719
R20_FIDONETPROG...
...RAM.MYPOINT
  0/2
R20_FIDONETPROGRAM   0/22
R20_FIDONET   0/248
R20_FILEFIND   0/24
R20_FILEFOUND   0/22
R20_HIFI   0/3
R20_INFO2   3218
R20_INTERNET   0/12940
R20_INTRESSE   0/60
R20_INTR_KOM   0/99
R20_KANDIDAT.CHAT   42
R20_KANDIDAT   28
R20_KOM_DEV   112
R20_KONTROLL   0/13270
R20_KORSET   0/18
R20_LOKALTRAFIK   0/24
R20_MODERATOR   0/1852
R20_NC   76
R20_NET200   245
R20_NETWORK.OTH...
...ERNETS
  0/13
R20_OPERATIVSYS...
...TEM.LINUX
  0/44
R20_PROGRAMVAROR   0/1
R20_REC2NEC   534
R20_SFOSM   0/340
R20_SF   0/108
R20_SPRAK.ENGLISH   0/1
R20_SQUISH   107
R20_TEST   2
R20_WORST_OF_FIDONET   12
RAR   0/9
RA_MULTI   106
RA_UTIL   0/162
REGCON.EUR   0/2056
REGCON   0/13
SCIENCE   0/1206
SF   0/239
SHAREWARE_SUPPORT   0/5146
SHAREWRE   0/14
SIMPSONS   0/169
STATS_OLD1   0/2539.065
STATS_OLD2   0/2530
STATS_OLD3   0/2395.095
STATS_OLD4   0/1692.25
SURVIVOR   0/495
SYSOPS_CORNER   0/3
SYSOP   0/84
TAGLINES   0/112
TEAMOS2   0/4530
TECH   0/2617
TEST.444   0/105
TRAPDOOR   0/19
TREK   0/755
TUB   0/290
UFO   0/40
UNIX   0/1316
USA_EURLINK   0/102
USR_MODEMS   0/1
VATICAN   0/2740
VIETNAM_VETS   0/14
VIRUS   0/378
VIRUS_INFO   0/201
VISUAL_BASIC   0/473
WHITEHOUSE   0/5187
WIN2000   0/101
WIN32   0/30
WIN95   0/4288
WIN95_OLD1   0/70272
WINDOWS   0/1517
WWB_SYSOP   0/419
WWB_TECH   0/810
ZCC-PUBLIC   0/1
ZEC   4

 
4DOS   0/134
ABORTION   0/7
ALASKA_CHAT   0/506
ALLFIX_FILE   0/1313
ALLFIX_FILE_OLD1   0/7997
ALT_DOS   0/152
AMATEUR_RADIO   0/1039
AMIGASALE   0/14
AMIGA   0/331
AMIGA_INT   0/1
AMIGA_PROG   0/20
AMIGA_SYSOP   0/26
ANIME   0/15
ARGUS   0/924
ASCII_ART   0/340
ASIAN_LINK   0/651
ASTRONOMY   0/417
AUDIO   0/92
AUTOMOBILE_RACING   0/105
BABYLON5   0/17862
BAG   135
BATPOWER   0/361
BBBS.ENGLISH   0/382
BBSLAW   0/109
BBS_ADS   0/5290
BBS_INTERNET   0/507
BIBLE   0/3563
BINKD   0/1119
BINKLEY   0/215
BLUEWAVE   0/2173
CABLE_MODEMS   0/25
CBM   0/46
CDRECORD   0/66
CDROM   0/20
CLASSIC_COMPUTER   0/378
COMICS   0/15
CONSPRCY   0/899
COOKING   32896
COOKING_OLD1   0/24719
COOKING_OLD2   0/40862
COOKING_OLD3   0/37489
COOKING_OLD4   0/35496
COOKING_OLD5   9370
C_ECHO   0/189
C_PLUSPLUS   0/31
DIRTY_DOZEN   0/201
DOORGAMES   0/2056
DOS_INTERNET   0/196
duplikat   6002
ECHOLIST   0/18295
EC_SUPPORT   0/318
ELECTRONICS   0/359
ELEKTRONIK.GER   1534
ENET.LINGUISTIC   0/13
Möte FIDONEWS_OLD2, 35949 texter
 lista första sista föregående nästa
Text 4828, 238 rader
Skriven 2007-07-22 11:38:36 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
   Kommentar till text 4814 av David Drummond (3:640/305)
Ärende: R&R exchanging insults
==============================
Hello David.

22 Jul 07 18:12, you wrote to me:

 DD> Jeff Smith -> David Drummond wrote:
 DD>>>>> Are you suggesting that he was first, and, like little
 DD>>>>> children, the rest followed his lead? Yeah, sure.

 JS>>>>      No actually. I think that in the beginning of Felten's
 JS>>>> tenure as editor and moderator. He did care about Fidonews and
 JS>>>> Fidonet and was considerably more active as moderator.

 DD>>> He has never done more than make polite requests of posters to
 DD>>> tone down their content. How do you feel he was "more active"?

 JS>>      Maybe that was the problem then. Sometimes you have to go
 JS>> beyond being polite. Especially with those that do not normally
 JS>> want to listen.

 DD> What else could he do, swear at them?

    Communicate David. He no longer even tries. He has made his moderating
job that much harder by alienating almost everyone that it is his job to
communicate with.

 DD> [...]

 DD>>>  and there is nothing anyone can do to alter the content of the
 DD>>> messages (other than the posters themselves).

 JS>>      The posters are responsible for the content of their posts.
 JS>> It looks like you are sharing in Feltens defeatest attitude. " I
 JS>> can't do it so it can't be done. I give up."

 DD> Only the posters can moderate their messages. There is nothing the
 DD> "moderator" can do but request that of them.

     Yes, the posters control their messages. They would control their
messages based on the level of respect and confidence that they have
in the moderator. If they have little or none for the moderator then
the moderator will get little or no complience. As is the current
situation.

 DD> [...]

 JS>>>>      Why are you choosing to avoid the real point here David?
 JS>>>> The rules are not the problem. Rules don't mean anything to
 JS>>>> anyone regardless of how good they might be if noone is
 JS>>>> enforcing those rules.

 DD>>> Why must they be enforced? Must you always be forced to do
 DD>>> things just for the sake of being forced?

 JS>>      Simple David. Rules that people know will not be enforced
 JS>> are meaningless.

 DD> So why have them?

     Because this echo has a purpose David. And that purpose is not to be
a yet another flame echo as you and Felten would seem to want it to be.
Ruled only by the mob mentality.


 JS>> What if the police made it clear that even though there
 JS>> was a law against stealing the police would not enforce that law?
 JS>> The result would be that those so inclined would steal to their
 JS>> hearts content. Same priciple here David. If Felten chooses to
 JS>> not enforce his own rules and even breaks them himself. He shows
 JS>> everyone just how meaningless those rules are.

 DD> You are comparing apples with oranges.


     No, I am trying to show you that if Felten posts rules (Reasonable
rules) and then makes it clear based on his own actions and words that
he will not enforce those rules. He can't blame anyone but himself when
people do not follow those rules, Yet he does just that. He blames the
users of the echo for the problems. He blames everyone but himself for
the problems that HE helped create.

 DD> [...]

 JS>>     This echo is not a free-for-all echo where we have mob rule.
 JS>> It has a rather narrow purpose and function. That being to
 JS>> support the Fidonews. The fact that Felten has chosen to give up
 JS>> and turn over his responsibility as moderator to the users should
 JS>> not mean that we are now the law here.

 DD> This may be your interpretation of the rules. It is obviously not for
 DD> all of those who appear to be in contravention with your
 DD> interpretation.

     I am simply going by the intended purpose of this echo. There is little
there to misinterpret.


 DD> [...]
 DD>>> The why must they be taken seriously? If no-one wants to take
 DD>>> them seriously they should be discarded.

 JS>>      This echo has a specific purpose David. A purpose that you
 JS>> think should be ignored just because you don't agree with it or
 JS>> don't want to be limited by it.

 DD> What purpose? According to my interpretation of the rules, this echo
 DD> is primarily for discussing articles appearing in Fidonews. It hasn't
 DD> been used for that in years - there is nothing in FidoNews to discuss.

    Be still my heart. <g> We agree. Yes, that is my interpretation too. As
I and others have said the rules are not the problem. The implementation of
those rules is the problem. Rules serve no purpose if they are not enforced.

 DD> IF you think this is its ONLY purpose, why are you discussing this
 DD> topic now?

    To try to make this echo better and bring it back to where it was
intended to be.

 JS>>  If you don't like the limitations of the purpose of this echo
 JS>> then I challenge you to go elsewhere.

 DD> Sorry, the majority out number you. Perhaps YOU should move somewhere
 DD> else...


     Are you sure about that? As for me, I am here to stay as long as needed.

 JS>> The people should not expect the echo to change to accommodate them.

 DD> Obviously they do, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

     No David. A vocal handful I would suspect do (Including you and
Felten) but not the majority. Many have I would think gotten tired of the
crap and chaos in this echo and ceased to post anymore.

 JS>> The people should change
 JS>> to accommodate the rules of the echo and not expect those rules
 JS>> to be change to their liking.

 DD> I understand that you don't get to taste democracy much in your area,
 DD> but  if the majority of people want the purpose of this echo changed,
 DD> it will be changed. You cannot stop the people.

     So far David you have failed to understand a number of things. Even
when they are spelled out to you. Either by choice or inability.


     Let me try to spell it out to you more directly. At the risk of maybe
comming across a little to strongly for some. This echo is NOT a democracy.
It is NOT to be ruled by the mob mentality. This echo has rules and a
specific purpose. The only real problem is that those rules need to be
enforced.


 JS>> If the rules are changed it should be done for
 JS>> the benefit of the Fidonews and Fidonet. Not for a particular
 JS>> person or a group of people who want no more than one more echo
 JS>> where they can swear, insult, and call people names.

 DD> If the majority want that, that's what they get.

 JS>>    We have plenty of echos already that can be used for that purpose.
 JS>> This echo is and was not intended to be one of those.

 DD> It has evolved into that.

     No.... It has been neglected and allowed to degrade into that. It
took neglect to allow thos echo to become what it has and it will take
work to get it back to where it was intended to be.


 DD> [...]
 DD>>> The hierarchical structure of the technical network never has
 DD>>> been - however some echoes (including this one) are.

 JS>>      That is merely your opinion David. This echo is a Fidonet
 JS>> based echo for the support of the Fidonews which is a Fidonet
 JS>> newsletter. This echo also has a specific purpose.

 DD> That purpose has become redundant - the echo has evolved beyond that.

     Evolved? Me thinks you are headed in the wrong direction there
David. Evolved suggests a positive movement.

 DD> [...]
 >>      Your avoiding the question David. When was the last time that
 JS>> Felten moderated someone IN this echo?

 DD> We both know that that is not the method he uses for moderation.

     We all can clearly see the method that he uses to moderate. He
chooses to moderate in absentia.


 DD> Is that what you want, you want to see people getting told off?


     No David.

 DD>>> [...]

 DD>>>>> Why do we have laws? If most people think a law is wrong, it
 DD>>>>> _is_ wrong.

 DD>>>>> Just as what is "right" is what the majority consider to be
 DD>>>>> "right"

 JS>>>>      If the majority where you live decide it is right to steal
 JS>>>> and kill. It is then right in your mind for them to do so?

 DD>>> If the majority decide that is right then it is right. That's
 DD>>> how democracy works.

 JS>>      Even though you choose not to accept it. Fidonet and this
 JS>> echo are not governed by mob rule. They are not a democracy. They
 JS>> both have policies or rules. If we choose to accept them then
 JS>> fine otherwise we are free to go elsewhere.

 DD> Current use of the echo proves you wrong. Majority decision _does_
 DD> decide the use of the echo. Rules mean nothing in these Fidonet echoes
 DD> any more.

     The current use of this echo only proves the moderator of this echo
to be ineffective.

 DD> --

 DD> regards

 DD> David

 DD> ---
 DD>  * Origin: Repeal the bad rules! (3:640/305)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)