Text 5070, 174 rader
Skriven 2007-08-01 20:29:10 av Björn Forsström (2:203/614.61)
   Kommentar till text 4600 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
Ärende: R&R exchanging insults
==============================

 BF>>>> If you or Roger did a good job as an editor, why not let you keep it
 BF>>>> and then take up the question about being a moderator at a later point.

 JS>>>      Ok, first who would decide?

 BF>> This was only a proposal to do something about the present locked
 BF>> situation. I don't have the answers, maybe some kind of voting
 BF>> procedure......?

 JS>      The selecting of a new editor has been done severals way in the past.
 JS> There have been outright selections by the current editor. There also have
 JS> been what I would call informal elections where candidates were suggested
 JS> and the current editor then selected from the qualified candidates. I
 JS> don't recall the users or the *C structure having an actual voting say in
 JS> the selection process other than suggesting candidates.

As I said, it was a proposal. I don't have the answers.

 JS>>> Would this merely be a tactic to help in
 JS>>> the defense of Felten or would this really be an attept to make this
 JS>>> echo and Fidonews itself better? I know it sounds like I am totally,
 JS>>> absolutely against Felten. That really isn't the case. I would rather
 JS>>> work with Felten than insist that he leave. But he himself has made that
 JS>>> next to impossible.

 BF>> Yours and Rogers obstinacy about not submiting anything is just as being
 BF>> as stubborn as he is. You all have your agenda and none is giving
 BF>> anything up.

 JS>      I think Roger's choice (Which I understand) is more definite than
 JS> mine. In fact I was considering submitting and article on the subject to
 JS> try to expore both sides of the situation. There are always at least two
 JS> sides to consider even if we don't agree with the other side(s).

I still haven't seen that in the Snooze.

 BF>>>> So far I really haven't understood why you think that The Snooze is so
 BF>>>> important? What good does it do?

 JS>>>      Now? Not nearly as much today but then look at the condition
 JS>>> it is in.

 BF>> But it can't be the editors fault that you and others refuse to send in
 BF>> articles. That decision is yours.

 JS>      Yes, the decision to not submit articles is ours. The point that I
 JS> was
 JS> making is that if the moderator (Moderator hat on or off) contributes
 JS> through his actions and/or words to people not wanting to submit articles.
 JS> Then that moderator must also bear some of the responsibility also.

As I said above, you are all to stubborn and none is willing to give anything
up.

 JS>>> The Fidonews is still important and is a historic part of Fidonet.

 BF>> History changes and perhaps it was important back when there were
 BF>> thousands of nodes and points but that's not how it is today.

 JS>      I think that the Fidonews is as important as we try to make it. I
 JS> agree that the Fidonews is pretty much getting ignored these days. No
 JS> sense paying attention to something that one has gotten used to being
 JS> empty is there? I would ask people to think of the Fidonews and submit an
 JS> article regardless of the editor. Yes the problem with the editor is still
 JS> there and needs to dealt with. But the editor does not the Fidonews make.
 JS> Meaning that the primary concern should be putting some life back into the
 JS> Fidonews.

Then, submit an article and show that you are better than the one you accuse.
Work within the system instead of standing outside the fence, whining at
everone
on the inside.

 JS>>> The
 JS>>> Fidonews and the Fidonet nodelist of course are what defines what
 JS>>> Fidonet is. Yes, Fidonews is in disrepair but that can be changed given
 JS>>> someone with the willingness to try. Will results be immediate? Most
 JS>>> likely not but in time with sustained effort the Fidonews echo and the
 JS>>> Fidonews can once again be something to admire about Fidonet instead of
 JS>>> somthing to just ignore as is the case currently.

 BF>> Fidonet is shrinking for every day and if you count the number of people
 BF>> posting here, is it 20? I don't think they bother as much about Fidonews
 BF>> as you do. With Shannon closing down and from what I read Dale Ross'
 BF>> system have been down for weeks and Doc's Place might shut down......

 JS>      Yes that is sad to see. But I can not see just giving up. That is not
 JS> to say or suggest that those mentioned above didn't have good reasons for
 JS> making the decisions that they did. Fidonet is still only a hobby and real
 JS> life should always take priority.

Tell that to those who do everything in their power to bitch about everyting
they
can just because they can.
Take a look, in other echoes as well, where so called adults knows that
personal
attacks are forbidden but do they stop? No. Instead they whine to the moderator
when they get a rebuke. And those people are moderators them self in other
echoes where they tell everyone not to do personal attacks. Nice folks eh.....

 BF>>>>  Things can be discussed here without it and if you say that the
 BF>>>> rules for FIDONEWS are like that, change the rules so it will fit to
 BF>>>> what it is today.

 JS>>>      As moderator I would have no problem discussing things in
 JS>>> this echo that have been published in Fidonews. That is after all the
 JS>>> intended purpose of this echo.

 BF>> As I said, things change and we have to accept that.

 JS>>> This echo should not be used to replace the Fidonews newsletter but
 JS>>> instead to augment the Fidonews and provide a forum for expansion and
 JS>>> discussion of ideas and thoughts raised in the Fidonews.

 BF>> If you look around, this echo, win 95 and COOKING are almost the only one
 BF>> with some kind that have something we can call traffic. Changing this
 BF>> echo to something that would suit you and Roger would probably kill it
 BF>> definatly.

 JS>      There would no doubt be a gradual traffic drop. But do not see it
 JS> dying
 JS> out. Hopefully it would be more of a transition than an ending of traffic.

If that's what you think, fine, but I don't agree with you.

 JS>>> This echo should not be allowed to be a free-for-all where people's only
 JS>>> purpose appears to be to feed the chaos.

 BF>> Tell that to the people that feed the chaos.

 JS>      Agreed. But shouldn't that have already been said to them? But when
 JS> the moderator adds to the chaos then everyone feels free to say and do
 JS> what the want.

See. You couldn't resist giving Felten a kick but you didn't kick the others.

 JS>>> I would not rule with and iron
 JS>>> fist as I am sure some would be likely to suggest. It would take time to
 JS>>> earn the respect necessary to be effective. But I would hope that when
 JS>>> people see that they would get treated the same if friend or foe. That
 JS>>> they would accept moderations even if they did not agree with me and/or
 JS>>> the moderation. I am the first to admit that I have flaws in both mind
 JS>>> and attitude. A fact that I am sure would be pointed out posthaste.

 BF>> A chain isn't stronger than its weakest link. Get rid of those and you'll
 BF>> have a strong chain.

 JS>      All I can say is that I am working on it. <g>

So far you have only tried to get rid of the one that controls the chain.

 BF>>>>  Everything else around us changes and today when Fido is
 BF>>>> shrinking we just have to adjust us to it and accept that Fido isn't
 BF>>>> what it used to be.

 JS>>>      How effective has the attempts to make changes in Fidonet
 JS>>> been? That should not keep us from trying even though we know what an
 JS>>> uphill fight it would be.

 BF>> Most have found a parking spot on their way up that hill and have
 BF>> accepted the view since it's impossible to move a mountain.

 JS>      Taking a rest on the way up the is fine. But one has to stand up
 JS> and continue one trip up the hill at some point.

When you get high enough you have to use oxygen, are you prepared with full
tanks of it? And when/if you are you will see those who feeds the caos passing
you in a helicopter. The bad guys will always be ahead of you and then you have
to get ground-to-air missiles and then they will get a fighter with even better
missiles etc. etc.........

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 * Origin: . (2:203/614.61)