Text 9921, 120 rader
Skriven 2008-01-16 09:59:12 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
   Kommentar till text 9900 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Myths
=============
Hello Michiel.

16 Jan 08 12:52, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Monday January 14 2008 10:22, you wrote to me:

 JS>>     You know as well as I do that that isn't the case. His
 JS>> arrival in Chicago simply provided the authorities the
 JS>> opportunity to make the arrest. He had already commited the crime
 JS>> of trying to have sex with a minor. That is what he was trying to
 JS>> do. That is what his intent was.

 MV> No Jeff, I do not know that. In fact I know it to be not so. Before he
 MV> set foot on US soil, he had NOT committed the crime of intent to have
 MV> sex with a minor for the simple reason that under the laws of the
 MV> country under which jurisdiction he resided, it is not a crime.

     True, but he did not solicit a Dutch minor now did he? He instead
tried to solicit a US minor which is a crime in the US. Regardless of
of the nationality of the suspect.


 MV> Before Menno Blom set foot on US territory, he was on Dutch soil and
 MV> so Dutch law applied.

    On Dutch soil, yes. But his crime was excuted in the US where US laws
apply.

 MV> You may not like it, you may think our laws are terribly wrong, but
 MV> that is the way it is. Like it or not: Menno Blom committed no crime.
 MV> Period.

    Not on Dutch soil, no. But as you are aware we are not talking about a
Dutch crime on Dutch soil. We are talking about a US crime by a Dutch
national.

 JS>>     I think part of the reason we are having this discussion is
 JS>> because of the differance in the way that sex involving minors is
 JS>> looked at here versus some of the Scandinavian countries.

 MV> I don't know why you mention Scandinavia, but no I do not think the
 MV> reason for the discusiion is that we have different views on the issue
 MV> of sex with youngsters.

 MV> No the issue is much more general. It is about the US having the
 MV> arrogance to believe they have the right to impose their laws and
 MV> moral values on others.

     Wrong Michiel. US laws apply to anyone whose actions are executed
in the US regradless of where the suspect might actually reside. It takes
an action based upon intent Michiel. If Blom had attempted to solicit a Dutch
minor and not traveled to the US. He would not have been arrested as he
wouldn't have broken any US law. He CHOSE to solicit someone in the US where
US laws then applied and was held responsible for his actions. He made the
decision to take the actions that he did.


 MV> You may believe it is all right for law enforcement officers to lay a
 MV> trap and extend their tentacles into the jurisdiction of another
 MV> country, form our POV it is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

    Blom initiated the contact with someone that he thought was a minor
did he not? Did he not take action on someone in another country where
that countries laws apply? Sex (Whether attemped or actual) with minors
is a crime here Michiel. And it appies to anyone equally. Mr. Blom knowingly
made the decision to take the actions that he did and needs to be responsible
for his actions.

 MV> I know this is hard, but try to see it from our POV.

     I know that the laws and the viewpont of other countries can be
differant regarding sex and children. While I may not approve or agree
I can still respect that differance.

    Lets say for the sake of discussion that Blom didn't think that having
sex with a minor was wrong or a crime. When he chose to solicit someone who
lived in another country. The laws of that country then apply to his actions
directed toward that country or it's citizens. Your or my view of the
correctness of US or Dutch laws or their enforcement aside. Mr. Blom made the
decision to do what he did where he chose to do it which was a crime where he
chose to do it. As the LEO have told me here on occasion. Ignorance is not a
valid excuse.

 MV> What *we* see is a law abiding citizen that is lured into the
 MV> territory of another country by a method that is considered unethical
 MV> and unlawful here and by someone who has no authority in the first
 MV> place. It is a hostile act.

    You are trying to paint Blom as some innocent law abiding soul who was
tricked into wanting to have sex with a child. Give me a break Michiel.

 MV> What it boils down to is that the US attempts to extend its laws into
 MV> the jurisdiction of other countries and impose its moral values on
 MV> others. This is as unacceptable as Muslim extremists attempting to
 MV> bring us under Sharia law.

    Not the case Michiel. The US didn't extend it's laws into another
country. The US simply applied it's laws to a Dutch national who through
their actions which were *executed in the US* violated US laws. Simply
stated what Blom did here was a crime here. Regardless of whether it is
considered a crime under Dutch law. I would expect no less treatment of
an American who violated a Dutch law while living here.

 MV> I think that attitude is a major cause of friction in US-foreign
 MV> relationships and it will continue to do so until either the US drops
 MV> that attitude or is reduced to a force that can be ignored.



 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
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