Text 9996, 180 rader
Skriven 2008-01-17 12:57:02 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
   Kommentar till text 9974 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Myths
=============
Hello Michiel.

17 Jan 08 16:25, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Wednesday January 16 2008 09:59, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> No Jeff, I do not know that. In fact I know it to be not so.
 MV>>> Before he set foot on US soil, he had NOT committed the crime of
 MV>>> intent to have sex with a minor for the simple reason that under
 MV>>> the laws of the country under which jurisdiction he resided, it
 MV>>> is not a crime.

 JS>>      True, but he did not solicit a Dutch minor now did he? He
 JS>> instead tried to solicit a US minor

 MV> Did he? Solicit a *US* minor? Did the LEO explicitly pose as a *US*
 MV> minor or just as "a girl"?

     Let me ask you this Michiel. What good would it have serverd the LEO
to pose as only a female? Blom demonstrated his desire to find a young girl
which explains why the LEO acted as a minor female to determine if Blom would
decide to act on his intentions.

 MV>  And if so, did it register?

    I can't answer that.

 MV> I find it plausible that Menno Blom was just looking for /a/ girl and
 MV> the only reason he responded to a "14 year American girl" was that
 MV> that was what was presented to him. Had the LEO posed as a 16 year old
 MV> Dutch girl, he might have taken the bait just the same.

     A 16 year old Dutch girl in the US? The age of consent in Chicago is
17 years and varies based on the state. Generally 16-18 is the age of consent
in the US. So, a 16 year old girl would have yielded the same result. My
opinion is that the LEO posed as a 13-14 year old because there would be less
doubt of the suspects intentions of wanting a child as opposed to a older
teenager. It would seem that if Bloms interest was for a young girl 12-14
he would take steps to find out the age of the girl he was soliciting. If he
was wanting an older girl then why didn't he refuse interaction with the
aparent 13 year old? If someone is interested in sex with a child it would
only seem prudent to know what legal ramafications there might be based on
the child's age as well as their location. Since both affect what the legal
outcome would be if any.


 JS>> which is a crime in the US. Regardless of of the nationality of
 JS>> the suspect.

 MV> He was not in the US at the time.

 MV>>> Before Menno Blom set foot on US territory, he was on Dutch soil
 MV>>> and so Dutch law applied.

 JS>>     On Dutch soil, yes. But his crime was excuted in the US where
 JS>> US laws apply.

 MV> Then I ask you again: Are you telling me that disembarking from am
 MV> aircraft and meeting with a 50 year old police officer in the lobby a
 MV> a hotel a crime in the US? Because that is all he did while on US
 MV> soil?

    No Michiel. What I am saying is that his soliciting of a US child or
someone acting in the capacity of a LEO as a child for sex is a US crime.
I am guessing that the LEO's chose to verify intent by seeing if Blom would
travel to the US to follow through with desire to have sex with a American
minor child.

 MV>>> You may not like it, you may think our laws are terribly wrong,
 MV>>> but that is the way it is. Like it or not: Menno Blom committed
 MV>>> no crime. Period.

 JS>>     Not on Dutch soil, no. But as you are aware we are not
 JS>> talking about a Dutch crime on Dutch soil.

 MV> Then what are we talking about? You claimed he had already committed a
 MV> crime *before* he set foot on US soil.

     Yes, see above.

 JS>>  We are talking about a US crime by a Dutch national.

 MV> Residing on Dutch soil and therefore subject to Dutch law and Dutch
 MV> law only.

     If his actions were directed at a Dutch citizen then I would agree with
you. Dutch crime on Dutch soil. If I act in a manner that breaks a Dutch law
while sitting here in Minnesota. A crime was still commited but not an US
crime.


 JS>> He CHOSE to solicit someone in the US

 MV> Did he? Are you sure? Or was it the LEO that made the choice for him
 MV> by posing as such?

     He made up his own mind Michiel. We all have that ability. Regardless
of how good the seller might be we make the decision to buy the product or
not. Blom made the decision to solicit someone he thought was a 13 year old
child. Which demonstrated his intent and desire for a young girl. The LEO
provided the opportunity but Blom made the decision to act.

 JS>>     Blom initiated the contact with someone that he thought was a
 JS>> minor did he not?

 MV> I do not know who initiated the contact. The logical sequence of
 MV> events is that the LEO initiated the contact by posing as a willing
 MV> girl.

     Your logic seems wrong there. If the LEO's pose or advertise themselves
as a minor child. They are in essence holding up a sign that says "Hi, I am
13. Anyone there?" The contact is then made by someone looking for a 13 year
old. Blom made the decision to make and continue with the contact and then
chose to take matters further by deciding to make or agree to physical contact.


 JS>> Did he not take action on someone in another country where that
 JS>> countries laws apply? Sex (Whether attemped or actual) with
 JS>> minors is a crime here Michiel.

 MV> But not here and here is where he was.

     If I were to conspire or act steal or defrand a Dutch company while in
the US. I broke Dutch law and I would suspect that they would wish to hold me
responsible for my actions regardless of what country I lived in. Same
principle here.


 MV>>> I know this is hard, but try to see it from our POV.

 JS>>      I know that the laws and the viewpont of other countries can
 JS>> be differant regarding sex and children. While I may not approve
 JS>> or agree I can still respect that differance.

 MV> Your fiatting the entrapment quite clearly shows you do NOT respect
 MV> those differences in laws and viewpoints.

 MV>>> What *we* see is a law abiding citizen that is lured into the
 MV>>> territory of another country by a method that is considered
 MV>>> unethical and unlawful here and by someone who has no authority
 MV>>> in the first place. It is a hostile act.

 JS>>     You are trying to paint Blom as some innocent law abiding
 JS>> soul who was tricked into wanting to have sex with a child. Give
 JS>> me a break Michiel.

 MV> Nevertheless from our POV, that is precisely what happened.

     You do like to try to speak for the non US masses don't ya Michiel.


 MV>  Someone
 MV> who operates within the confines of the law is a law abiding citizen.
 MV> When Menno Blom was approached by the US cop, he was residing on Dutch
 MV> soil and had broken no Dutch law. Ergo, he was a law abiding citizen.
 MV> And tricked he was. By the LEO who presented himself with a false
 MV> identity. And a dirty trick to boot.

     That is merely your opinion Michiel to which you are certainly
entittled.

 MV> How can we ever trust the US when their officials pull dirty tricks
 MV> like that on our citizens?

     Give me a break. Bottom line is that Blom made the decision to try to
have sex with a child in a country where that is a crime. And you cry foul
when that country tries to hold that person responsible for their actions.
There was no trick Michiel except in your mind.

 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)