Text 14373, 127 rader
Skriven 2011-02-23 10:55:46 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Defector admits to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war
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Hello Robert,

On Sunday February 20 2011 16:25, you wrote to me:

 MV>> That was over 200 years ago. The world is a different place now.

 RB> And humans different people?

But of course. people are formed by two things:

1) Genes.
2) The environment in which they grow up.

Genes have pretty much steyed the same, but the environment has drastically
changed. It is not as easy was it was 200 years ago to keep people ignorant and
isolated. To run a society you need people who can operate machinery and for
that they need to read. They need to be able to operate computers. Today people
have internet and satellite televison.

"I keep em poor, you keep them ignorant" does not work any more. The worls is
different and people are different.

 MV>> That is probably because you are too much focussed on the western
 MV>> style democracy.

 RB> That's why it's called "democracy" and not "dictatorship"

Indonesia is not a dictatorship.

 MV>> Indonesia may not have the type of democracy that you would like
 MV>> to have for yourself. To me it looks that it is what THEY want.

 RB> You can naturally say the same about _any_ country, including places
 RB> like Zimbabwe.

No, you can not and you know it.

 MV>> Mind you , if the people of a country decide that they want to be
 MV>> ruled by an absolute monarch, than that too is democratic
 MV>> decision.

 RB> Is it? And who decides,

I gave you the example of Lichtenstein.

 RB> if there are no free elections and no literate and informed
 RB> electorate?

Choosing to be ruled by an absolute monarch does not rule out an informed
electorate. You are too focussed on the western style of doing things.

 RB>>> And of course, there was the added help from the Americans, who
 RB>>> dropped the Shah like a hot potato to let "the people" have their
 RB>>> will.

 MV>> Here I totally disagree. The Sjah was a brutal dictator...

 RB> In _complete_ contrast to Koumehni, a gentle, kind old man...

That does not undo the fact that the Sjah was a brutal dictator that should
never had the support of the US in the first place.

 MV>> ...that should never have had the US support in the first place.

 RB> Why not, as long as "the people" (who cares how repressed) accepted
 RB> that? According to you, that was "democracy".

They obviously did not accept it or there would have been no revolution.

Other than that: even if they had accepted it, the Sjah still should not have
the support of the uSA. When peope choose to be oppressed, t does not mean that
they deserve support of the USA. They can just as well be left alone to enjoy
their choice.

 MV>> This policy is a selfish policy of cowards.

 RB> No, just realism.

And a selfish policy pf cowards.

 RB> The same kind of realism that governs most of the world today. Take a
 RB> look at the Pax Romana, introduced by Octavian, a bloody dictator if
 RB> there ever was one. But he kept the Roman Empire stable for many
 RB> decades and gave it a time of peace and prosperity.

The same can be said about Saddam Hussein. So why did he have to go?

 RB> Take your choice: "democracy" and chaos (at least in countries not
 RB> able to understand the concept), or rigid dictatorship, peace and
 RB> prosperity. I know that's not politically correct nowadays, but
 RB> "them's the facts".

There is a world of difference between accepting that we can not remove every
dictator and actively supporting dictators and supplying them with weapons as
the US has done in the case of Mubarak and many others.

 MV>> Had we not supported thoe dictators, those countries may indeed be
 MV>> taken over by Islamic fundamentalists. But it would not have been
 MV>> Islamic fundamentalists that TURN AGAINST US.

 RB> ;-) Of course not... they would merely have behaved as the muslims did
 RB> in 1300 and 1400,

Do the Christians of today still behave as their forefathers who engaged in
crusades?

 MV>> The Americans have never stopped making the mistake of supporting
 MV>> dictators.

 RB> The question remains as to whether that was really a mistake.

Look at the mess that results. The "stability" is only temporary. It lasts a
couple of decades at most. Then:

1) The dictator turens against you. E.g. Saddam Hussein.

2) There is a coup, the dictator is ousted and its successor turns against you.
(Cuba)

3) There is a revolution and the people turn against you. (Iran and now
possibly Egypt and Libia)


Cheers, Michiel

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