Text 15822, 142 rader
Skriven 2011-03-25 15:58:55 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
  Kommentar till text 15796 av Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
Ärende: Who's talking to whom?
==============================
25 Mar 11 12:52, Ward Dossche wrote to Roy Witt:


 RW>> WD> Not this time ... when 647 people with a gun are staring to
 RW>> 3,000
 RW>> WD> people or more with a gun, then they are outgunned.

 RW>> Actually, it was only 216 well armed men ...

 WD> 647 including scouts and civilians...

Were not in the battle with Custer.

 WD> the 7th Cavalry during that campaign was in the field with 597
 WD> enlisted troops.

I was referring to the 216 (or 210 - depending on what historical
evidence you believe) who were killed, the rest were split off of Custer's
men.

 WD> 268 troops, scout and civilians were killed, 5 died afterwards of
 WD> wounds.

 RW>> ... were looking (not staring) at odds of 2:1 to
 RW>> 4:1, average of 3:1 (about 650) who were armed with muskets, bow &
 RW>> arrows, hachets and knives.

 WD> The archaeological evidence unearthed in 1984 at the battlefield
 WD> after the great grassfires and another sweep in 2004 uncovered a
 WD> wealth of information re shells and bullets and their calibers.

Yes, a well written article appeared in a 1998 publication of the Wild
West magazine written by Greg Michno, which goes through all of this. In
fact, it disputes much of what you've claimed so far.

"Although some white survivors claimed to be heavily outgunned, Private
Charles Windolph of Company H was probably closest to the truth when he
estimated that half the warriors carried bows and arrows, one-quarter of
them carried a variety of old muzzleloaders and single-shot rifles, and
one-quarter carried modern repeaters."

 WD> The indians were well armed,

Bullshit. See above.

 WD> hardly any black powder rifles at all.

Bullshit. Maxim didn't even get a patent for smokeless powder until 1890.
Everybody's firearm in America during 1876 was loaded with black powder.

 WD> They even had the tools to make their own bullits and reload
 WD> cartridges.

More bullshit. i.e. most cartridges used in 1876 were rim fire and you
cannot reload them. Try reloading a .22 long rifle cartridge sometime.

"much of the [Cavalry's] ammunition was probably lost: Indians commented
on capturing ammunition in cartridge belts and saddlebags."

 WD> Main problems were that the sometimes overcharged the cartridges and
 WD> they burst, wrong caliber cartridges, etc ...

More bullshit, see above.

 WD> They were well armed.

The indians were underarmed in comparison to what the 7th Calvary was
outfitted with.

"There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire
battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types
(including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at
least 371 individual guns.

The evidence indicated that the Indians used Sharps, Smith & Wessons,
Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards, Maynards, Starrs,
Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as Colts and
Springfields of other calibers."

[most of which were rim fire or muzzle loaded firearms, save perhaps the
Henrys, Winchesters, Maynards, Spencers and Engields. Only the Henrys and
Winchesters were .44 caliber, while the Army troops were outfitted with CF
Springfield Carbines and 1873 Colt SAAs. And if you think that 62 Henrys
and Winchesters could out-gun 69 Springfield Carbines, you better think
again. Henrys and Winchesters have to be reloaded after using their
magazine of 16 rounds, while the trap door Springfields could be loaded
and fired more rapidly, until there was no more ammo. And at 16
rounds/minute, they would out-shoot both the Henrys and Winchesters in
the long run.]

"There was evidence of 69 individual Army Springfields on Custer's Field
(the square-mile section where Custer's five companies died), but there
was also evidence of 62 Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps
.50-caliber weapons. [The Sharps rifle is a single shot, falling block]

In all, on Custer's Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian
firearms versus 81 for the soldiers.

It appears that the Army was outgunned as well as outnumbered."

[But the writer's follow-up conclusion proves that wrong.]

 WD> Benteen and Reno had to dig-in for over a day to shield themselves
 WD> from long-range indian snipers.

One and only one indian (with a Buffalo gun) who was killed by another
long range 7th Calvary hunting rifle. Meanwhile, the indians were kept at
least 300 yards from Custer's troops by the long range of the Springfield
vs the short range of the weapons used by the indians. It was only after
the attrition of men by constant attacks that Custer and his men fell at
the last possible moment.

 RW>> Being outnumbered 3:1 means that those Springfields couldn't be
 RW>> loaded fast enough to stop the overwhelming odds.

 WD> Go to the site one day, spend some time there.

No need, I have a better library on this subject than you do.

 WD> It isn't rocket-science to see that Custer was an idiot and could
 WD> never win.

He weighed his odds against information he didn't have. Everything he did
was according to the book. But it was not enough to overcome the
combination of particular circumstances, some of his own making, arrayed
against him that day. Inadequate training in marksmanship and poor fire
discipline resulting from a breakdown in command control were major
factors in the battle results.

Neither Custer's weapons nor those the Indians used against him were the
cause of his defeat.





                R\%/itt

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