Text 17282, 125 rader
Skriven 2011-04-22 09:41:26 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 17205 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Names will never hurt me...
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Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday April 21 2011 at 09:26:

RB>> Ever heard of "treaties"?

MV> A treaty is sort a contract between sovereign states isn't it?

Like the USA and Cuba at the time Guantanamo was leased, yes. And just to
remind you, treaties are not abrogated (rendered null and void) merely because
a government happens to change. If that were the case, no treaty would be worth
the paper it's written on.

RB>> You're confusing Guantanemo with Ramstein.

MV> Am I? How do we know that when push comes to shove, The same will not
MV> happen to Ramstein as what happened to Guantanomo? That the US will
MV> simply refuse to leave?

You're joking ;-)

RB>> May well be, but that still doesn't change the fact that Ramstein
RB>> still exists because the German government permits it.

MV> Just as Guantanomo still exists because the Cuban government permits
MV> it?

The Cuban government is not involved. The treatey was ratified and all
following governments are bound by it. Even the Cubans understand that - why is
it so hard for you to do so?

MV>>> I don't want nuclear weapons in my back yard.

RB>> Understandable, but neither you nor I can influence that in any way.
RB>> Talk to the German government.

MV> I am... through my representatives in the EU parliament.

;-) Dream on. They can't even prevent your personal data from being transmitted
to the States if you ever take a plane trip.

MV> I do not really have a problem with wounded soldiers being treated on
MV> European soil. What I have a problem with is large US military
MV> presence in my back yard. Especially when it is under false pretence
MV> and involves nuclear weapons.

That's for the Germans to decide, not you. And in that respect, I also have no
say, even as a German citizen. But that's nothing really new.

MV>>>>> The US has a good record of turning former allies into enemies...

RB>>>> You mean the reverse.

MV>>> No, I meant exactly what I wrote.

RB>> Then you're wrong.

MV> Hw about: Russia was an alley during WWII. After that it became an
MV> enemy.

And "naturally" the Russian incursions into eastern Europe had _nothing_ to do
with that. C'mon, Michiel. Trying to put the blame on the Americans for what
the Russians did (and to which the Americans reacted) is going just a _bit_ too
far.

MV> Iran was an alley. Then its people threw out the Shah and it became an
MV> enemy.

And only because of the "natural" religious extremism and support (in word and
in the form of equipment) of terrorism directed at the west in general and
America in particular. Shame on them ;-)

MV> Iraq was an alley during the Iraq-Iran war, Later it became an enemy.

You're confusing things just a bit. Iraq was supported during the war, since
Iran had become a hostile theocratic society. Remember the old saying that "the
enemy of my enemy is my friend"? But there was never a military alliance. If
you think so, you're misinformed.

MV> Mubarak was an alley...

Yeah, but he lost power. Politics makes strange bedfellows. Anyway, that had
nothing to do with the USA.

MV> Ghadaffi was an alley...

Really? If so, an unwilling one. Remember Ronald Regan and the Tripoli bombing
in return for the nightclub bombing in Berlin?

MV> Need I go on?

To convince yourself, hardly.

MV>>> I think the damage done in Iraq is irreversible. It was the final
MV>>> blow to the US credibility as the unconditional good guys.

RB>> Maybe. Wait until some _really_ bad guys show up and see how fast
RB>> people start to scream for the Americans to help. It's already
RB>> happened in Libya, by the way.

MV> Aren't you confusing cause and effect again? Who helped Ghadaffi stay
MV> in the saddle for forty years?

No idea. Maybe the Europeans, who bought and still buy most of the Libyan oil?

MV> And BTW, those rebels in Lybia are not screaming for the US to help
MV> them.

Then the report I read on the BBS website was apparently wrong.

MV> They are screaming for the EU to help them.

Poor people. In that case they'll wait forever.

MV> Who naturrally are reluctant. They have learned from the mistakes of
MV> the US...

"Do nothing and carry a big mouth" is apparently the new motto of the EU (very
loosely paraphrased from Teddy Roosevelt). Except for the British and French,
who have experience with ex-colonies and their dictators. And naturally are
involved in trying to keep the present situation from turning into an all-out
genocide.

Cheers, Bob

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