Text 1868, 120 rader
Skriven 2009-12-23 13:54:18 av Lee Lofaso (3:800/432.0)
   Kommentar till text 1851 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: The Evil That Men Do
============================
Hello Bob,

>BF>Was it Hitler, Eichman or any of the other high ranking Nazis, or was
>BF>it a few suddenly promoted low-lives who suddenly got more power than
>BF>their petty minds and characters deserved?

>BF>As long as we refuse to discuss this, we will never get the proper
>BF>answers...

RB>The discussion on this point started the minute Nazi Germany
RB>surrendered and has continued since: you're talking about the
RB>so-called "collective guilt", the support of everyday Germans
RB>that made it possible for leaders such as Hitler, Goering and
RB>Himmler to cause such death and destruction.

Wha'?  How can anybody blame everyday Germans for the sins of a few?
What about everyday Russians, who suffered at the hands of Joe Stalin
and other dictators?  What about everyday Chinese, who suffered at
the hands of Mao Tse-Tung and other dictators?  The list can go on,
listing everyday peoples of virtually every country on earth.

RB>This naturally existed, whether the support was voluntary
RB>(in the hope of profit or advancement) or out of fear for the
RB>consequences. Equally as naturally, many Germans did _not_ support
RB>the regime and either did nothing to help it or covertly sabotaged
RB>it. However, any overt resistance was mortally dangerous after 1933,
RB>and there were few who were willing to risk the consequences.

Hitler took power through legal means.  The German people supported
him.  The same can be said of Lenin.  Or Stalin.  Or other dictators.

Who is to say the Iraqi people did not support Saddam Hussein?  We
are the ones who told the world the Iraqi leader had to go.  Had
it not been for our insistence, there would have been no invasion
of Iraq.  Saddam Hussein would still be in power (or his hand-picked
replacement).  And thousands of Americans and Iraqis would still be
alive.

Did Germany start WWII?  Looking back at historical facts, not
the propaganda dished out by others, you and others might find the
answer quite surprising.

Germans, for the most part, were happy under Hitler.  Very few
Germans were persecuted.  Outside of Germany, especially during
the war, many people were persecuted.  But even during the war,
inside of Germany, most Germans were happy and content, and
had no reason to fear their own government.

RB>The answers you refer to are complex - just when do you
RB>count someone a perpetrator rather than a victim of the
RB>dictatorial regime? How high up does one have to be to be
RB>accountable for his/her transgressions - and were they
RB>recognizable as transgressions at the time they were done?*)

Most everyday Germans were Nazis.  Does that mean that all Germans
are/were evil?  Such a silly question.  Should the world indict an
entire people simply because the leader of that country had chosen
to defend that people's homeland through any means necessary?

Germans fought for Germany.  Up until the very end.  Germany
was their homeland.  Can you, or anybody else, blame a people
for defending its own homeland?  I can't.

RB>Ask practically any German nowadays what his/her
RB>grandfather/grandmother did during the period from 1933-1945,
RB>and if the person trusts you not to make an issue of it, you
RB>may hear some worrisome stories. Dear old granddad may just
RB>have been an SS man in one of the "Einsatzgruppen" in Russia.
RB>Still, he was someone's grandfather: you can pick your friends,
RB>but you can't pick your relatives, and blaming someone for what
RB>one's grandpafents did is more than problematic.

No German will freely admit to being a coward.
No German will freely admit his/her grandparents were cowards.
Germans are as patriotic a people as any other people.
That was true during WWII.  And it is true today.

RB>Therefore, at some point in time, there had to be some kind
RB>of "national reconstruction" as in South Africa, since too
RB>many people had been involved to really punish more than
RB>the ringleaders.

Oh, yeah.  Let's have a race war.  That would be fun.  Loads of fun.
Especially since white folks have the wealth.  Nah.  Better to make a
trade.  White folks get to keep their wealth in exchange for giving
up political power.  Less bloody that way.  And allows for land to
be used for purposes other than cemeteries.

RB>As for the ringleaders, I can't really see having much
RB>sympathy with them, since they really were under no duress
RB>to excel in their criminal activities - only ambition and
RB>in some cases extreme idiology drove them. Placing the blame
RB>on underlings is in my opinion wrong, but common. If a king
RB>or a prime minister blunders, his advisors get the sack.
RB>He remains in office. Whether that's just is debatable.

And had Germany won the war, Hitler would have been proclaimed
a saint.  Remember, we wrote their history.  Not that any of it
is true.  But it is the history we wrote.  For them, and for
everybody else.

RB>*) To get an idea of American antisemitism, you might view
RB>"Gentleman's Agreement", a 1947 film with Gregory Peck.
RB>Presumably none of the people depicted there would have
RB>considered themselves bigotted.

To get a real idea of American antisemitism, you might visit
David Duke's web site.  Or buy one of his stupid books.  I hear
he is quite popular, giving lectures in Russia.  And in various
European countries.  However, I seriously doubt he will ever
step foot anywhere in Germany.  Even though I am sure he would
absolutely love to do so.

--Lee


 * SLMR 2.1a * Don't worry.  With Obama, everything will be free!

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