Text 2096, 100 rader
Skriven 2009-12-30 15:49:22 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
   Kommentar till text 2083 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: The Evil That Men Do
============================
Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Wednesday December 30 2009 at
12:20:

RB>> But quite aside from that, since when have moslems practiced
RB>> tolerance, peace and freedom among _themselves_?

MV> They are no angels of course, but when was the last major war between
MV> two Islamic contries without Western involvement?

You leave yourself two major excuses here, doubtless because you recognize the
justice of what I wrote above. How do _you_ define "major" and what you _you_
consider "without Western involvement"? Regardless of what I cite, you can and
will come back with "Oh, but that's not what I meant".

You also are doubtless trying to protect yourself against the obvious cases of
Iran-Iraq (started by Saddam Hussein, who wanted to take over Iranian territory
to get more oil and coastline after the Islamic Revolution), the warfare
between the Palastinian Fatah and Hamas groups, the actions of the Syrians in
Lebanon, the invasion of Kuweit by Iraq and a few other "minor" things.

Based on what you write, I don't doubt you will claim all of these have been
mere "American surrogate" wars. Although that doesn't say much for the
intelligence or independence of the usually fiercely independent Moslem
leaders.

RB>> The only thing they appear to hate more than Israelis (and Americans)

MV> For which they have good reasons...

You appear to have much sympathy for religious fanatics and terrorists,
Michiel. And I dispute your conclusions, since they are much too one-sided for
my taste.

RB>> is other moslems. And hate, not tolerance or affection or brotherly
RB>> love, is the driving force in modern islam.

MV> Absolute nonsence.

You're living in a dream world, or are intentionally trying to deny the
obvious.

MV> The average Muslim is not more violent than the average Christian.

The average Muslim of the year 2009 is no more violent than the average
Christian of the year 1100. Unfortunately, we no no longer live in the year
1100, so the playing field is not level.

MV> Of course there are extermeists. But you will find those everywhere,
MV> not just among Muslims.

How many Christian suicide bombers have blown up aircraft in the last few
years, Michiel?

RB>> Ever hear the term "Hashemite whore"? That's what his "arab brothers"
RB>> once called King Hussein of Jordan.

MV> You should not judge an entire religion by the words of a few
MV> extremists.

I don't. I judge Muslims by what I see demonstrated in the media. The riots and
hysterical ranting of so-called "clergy" after publication of the Mohammed
cartoons in Denmark were very illustrative of the kind of thinking that goes on
in that part of the world. And anyone who trys to excuse that on the basis of
religion is simply spouting appeasement and fear that any future free
expression (in OUR society) will lead to even more violence.

Why should we allow ourselves to be intimidated by foreigners from another
culture, why should we voluntarily give up our freedoms in our own countries
simply because some foreigners from another culture get hysterical and rampage
brainlessly? To hell with that, is my attitude.

If a Muslim wants to kill his daughter because she wants to marry someone her
father doesn't approve of - let him move back to where he came from, where such
behavior is acceptable. If a Muslim wants to force his daughter to marry a
cousin she's never even met and certainly doesn't love, let him move back to
where he came from, where such hehavior is acceptable. If a Muslim wants to
play the macho, beating up on women since the are (in his eyes) inferior
creatures, let him move back to where he came from, and where such behavior is
acceptable.

Otherwise: anyone, and I mean ANYONE who wants to live in MY country had damned
sure better behave in a manner that is acceptable HERE. Anyone who wants to
live here merely to enjoy the higher living standard, but otherwise wants to
live as if he were back in "dear old Anatolia" or elsewhere in the Muslim
world, can just stay where he is.

MV> You don't judge the entire US population by the words of Malcolm X do
MV> you?

Malcolm X was of limited influence in the States. There have been better
examples (such as Father Coughlin and Huey Long), but you may not be aware of
them. And such people were never, _never_ as influential in the US as people
like Arafat or Koumehni were in their respective areas. So no, I don't judte
the US population on the basis of Malcolm X - but I also believe you picked a
very bad analogy.

Cheers, Bob

--- GoldED+/W32 1.1.5-0613
 * Origin: Jabberwocky System - 02363-56073 ISDN/V34 (2:2448/44)