Text 21006, 124 rader
Skriven 2011-07-18 07:40:24 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 20935 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Pronunciation
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Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Sunday July 17 2011 at 11:14:

MV>>> There is no way to know how to pronounce a word in English from the
MV>>> spelling alone.

RB>> That's going too far, as a native speaker isn't totally helpless in
RB>> that respect.

MV> A native speaker has clues IN ADDITION of he written text.

A native speaker knows the language, he/she grew up with it and has an enormous
advantage in that respect. But it still doesn't mean he/she uses the language
correctly. I see plenty of English mistakes here (also by native speakers) -
but generally don't point them out - and in the German echos (and German
Internet forums) some of the German is really atrocious. My German is better
than that of some natives - but only my written German, as I have an accent.

MV> In reverse, I have no problem pronouncing "singer" as rhyming on
MV> "ginger". How is that for you?

Wrong. In that case, the word would be fairly senseless, since "to singe" (as
you would pronounce it above, something like "sindge") means to superficially
burn something. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "singer", i.e.
someone who superficially burns things. On the other hand, everyone knows what
a singer (with the hard "g") is - even non-anglos. (By the way, I'm using
"anglo" incorrectly as a short form for "English speaker" - it correctly means
an anglo-saxon person, i.e. caucasian of English/American descent and is
sometimes used in insults when "anglos" are contrasted with foreign
immigrants.)

RB>> Ease of pronunciation is a big factor, a bit like in French.

MV> Only for a native speaker, he has advance knowledge.

A native speaker has a feel for the language, that's true. But there are rules
and they help in some cases. It's basically the same in every language, except
for ones like German, where you pretty well pronounce words as they're spelled
- on the other hand, German has the three genders and all the rest. Every
language has it's ups and downs.

MV> Keep in mind that a non native speaker that learns it in school,
MV> usually learns the written form first. At least those of my
MV> generation. I learned English by reading books. Even my teachers had
MV> problems with the pronounciation.

English? I'm not surprised, but I already said that pronunciation's a bitch in
English. Even my wife, who speaks good English, has her problems sometimes -
one example: "Detroit" (city in Michigan). The Germans pronounce it "Dee-troit"
with the accent on the first syllable. In the States, it's "De-troit", with a
short "e" and the accent on the second syllable.

MV> Native speakers OTOH, learn the spoken language first. They learn by
MV> parroting their parents and other speakers.

True, but not necessarily exclusive to native speakers. Nowadays laguages are
often taught differently than earlier, with the spoken language first and total
immersion. Even the Japanese don't learn English solely by translating texts
nowadays ;-)

MV> In French and German it is much easier to decuct the pronounciation
MV> from the written word.

Strike "French" and I agree. Although... if you always end a French word by
pronouncing it through your nose, that usually sounds pretty good ;-)

RB>> But you're right, English pronunciation is a bitch - like Russian
RB>> pronunciation,

MV> I would not know about Russian. language are not my forte and Russian
MV> is a bridge too far for me.

I learned it at MIT, but for lack of use have meanwhile forgotten most of it.
At one time I was good enough to translate scientific articles, but I couldn't
do that anymore.

RB>> On the other hand, the grammar is a snap in English, and the word
RB>> order doesn't generally change the meaning. You can write extremely
RB>> poor English and still be understood -

MV> Are you sure about that? I think my English ia fairly good and still i
MV> am often misunderstood.

I think you think you're misunderstood more than you actually are. People
sometimes play with language, as here - but the Germans do it too - to get "one
up" on you. Intentional misunderstanding.

MV> Also the written English of Benny Pedersen and Gert Anderssen is
MV> almost gibberish to me. Can you decipher it?

I can't remember anything written by either of them. Where do the write?

RB>> I've seen non-English speakers claim that English is one of the
RB>> easiest languages to learn, but one of the hardest to speak
RB>> completely correctly.

MV> I can confirm that. With the note that it does not help that there
MV> does not seem to be consensus among native English speakers what the
MV> standard English is.

The easy answer is: that's because there is no such thing as standard English -
unless you're thinking of the kind of language people at CNN use, the simple,
unaccented stuff nobody really speaks in real life, but is easy to understand
on the TV.

There are all sorts of dialects of English, depending on the country. Ever hear
an Indian (not the US kind, what the British sometimes still refer to as an
east Indian) speak English? The lilt - the singsong way they speak makes it
difficult to understand until you get used to that.

RB>> Other languages have their difficulties, too. In French, yopu have
RB>> the numerous cases that drove me wild. In German, you have the three
RB>> genders plus the prepositions that take specific cases (sometimes) -
RB>> prepositions are a bitch in any language.

MV> German is a bitch, but what makes it even worse are the numerous
MV> exceptions.

Unfortunately, exceptions are in many languages the rule. That doesn't make
life easier for people leaning a new language.

Cheers, Bob

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