Text 21980, 141 rader
Skriven 2011-08-25 19:36:58 av alexander koryagin (2:5020/2140.2)
  Kommentar till text 21946 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
Ärende: Re: True Democracy
==========================
Hi, Lee Lofaso! How are you?
on Tuesday, 23 of August, I read your messsage to alexander koryagin
about "True Democracy"

  ak>> Hi, Lee Lofaso! How are you?
 LL> Ate far too many tamales than I should have
 LL> at cheap Mexican restaurant...

I hope you just ate and didn't look inside.  ;)

[skipped]
ak>> But ask modern Russians the same question.... And you probably find
ak>> democracy only in Moscow and a few major cities.

 LL> Definitions change over time.  Same with society.  What fits for
 LL> society in times past does not fit for society today.  And no two
 LL> societies are alike, even those of the same time period.  However,
 LL> some things remain.  And the central question, regardless of time
 LL> period, is this - "What do the people want?"  Democracy is one way
 LL> to deliver the goods.  But that begs the question as to what kind
 LL> of democracy?  Ancient Greece had a version, which changed over
 LL> time, to something that worked for them.  But what about other
 LL> ancient civilizations?  Did they also have some version of democracy?
 LL> I would think they did, even if we fail to understand their ways.

No they didn't. Democracy implies a wide circle of people who in one or
another way participate in ruling and making laws. If we imply now that all
people are equal we have a clear criterion - the more people participate in
ruling the better. But if we try to define which government is better we
will not find the western type of democracy at the top of the list.

There is another important criterion of the society - justice. If you want
to understand what true democracy is you must define "true justice." 
Democracy always follows justice. The more fundamental justice the more true 
democracy.
Justice can be easily defined, but not everyone like it. One peroson can do 
nothing and live sucking blood from people who are poor from birth. They 
work a lot, do most unpleasant work but their the owner pays them miserable 
wages. Injustice is the most grave problem of the capitalistic civilization. 
Therefore you can put aside the question about the quality of the democracy 
in western countries.
You can say that there is nothing better, and give me as an example the bad 
end of the USSR which was created to solve problems of injustice and create 
true democracy. But I say, that the experiment was not clear. Just suppose 
how well the Soviet people could have lived if they had peaceful economy and 
hundreds of billions dollars the USSR had spent on military expenses were 
redirected to the people. It is a myth, that socialist economy is not 
workable. It is myth that socialism and democracy is not compatible.

[skipped]
 LL>>> If a rigid set of rules were set in place, it may work for a short
 LL>>> while, but would lose favor later, to be replaced by something else.

 ak>> To take it wider, there are not any political or cultural systems with
 ak>> rigid constant rules.

 LL> You have never tried to live the life of a Trappist monk.
 LL> Would you like me to spell out the Rule of St. Benedict?

A monk is a slave (of God) by definition. So democracy is hardly applicable 
to such religious groups. The only democracy there is the rule that every 
person refuses from freedom voluntarily.

 ak>> The main question what a direction a particular society is
 ak>> going on. Do humans become better, higher, more refined?

 LL> Man has a very dark side to his nature.  The question is, can he
 LL> always keep that dark side under control?  Every man (or woman) has
 LL> a breaking point, no matter how good the man.  At some point, the
 LL> rage and anger will come out.  And when it does, the man becomes
 LL> a fierce, primitive animal that cannot be stopped.

A man, but I spoke of humans culture. There is such a thing as cultural 
evolution.

 ak>> The list of things that humans consider as abomination
 ak>> have been formed for thousands of years.

 LL> Man forgets quite easily when he is in a rage.

Again it doesn't matter what a man forgets. It is matter what the people of 
the society forget together.

[skipped]
 ak>> The fight against Ku Klux Klan was carried out by majority of the
 ak>> American people.

 LL> A very small minority, not even close to a majority.  And that fight
 LL> took decades before anything approaching justice came into being.

It may considered as a progress, however it can be not a progress. It is 
highly possible that freeing African slaves was just  prompted by new a 
doctrine. It said: free your slave and let him to live without means for 
existence. And this slave will return to you back and will work for a chunk 
of bread. And it will not necessary for you even to guard him. I believe 
that this doctrine was in Russia  when they abolished serfdom. The people 
became free but actually remained almost slaves and were forced to work hard 
for their lords for a song.

[skipped]
 ak>> Again, we can take Greek democracy, or Roman's. The level of democracy
 ak>> depends of morals and aesthetics.

 LL> A society's perception of morals and aesthetics.  Our own perception
 LL> may be very much different.

Yes, of course.

[skipped]

 LL> If we cannot laugh at our politicians, what have we become as a people?

However it's good to know very well the diiference between laughing and 
insulting.

 LL>>> Culture and society are two different things.  Societies come and go.

[skipped]
 ak>> Could Cajuns children teach French at home?

 LL> Today, after having learned from their parents and grandparents
 LL> mistakes, yes.  But it will be a long process, given how many folks
 LL> have forgotten their own heritage due to their inability to speak
 LL> Cajun French.

;-) I have a theory that the people who speak a quick language with a lots 
of short and often similar words develop in people good musical ear and they 
understand words quicker. That's why it is easier for Englishmen to learn 
French than for the French to learn English. That's is the main reason the 
French in general don't speak English. The same is true for the Russians, we 
also have a slow multysillabic language. ;-)


[...If your child dreams of a dog, be better than a dog!]
Bye Lee!
Alexander (yAlexKo[]yandex.ru)
fido7.fidonews 2011


--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
 * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)